Unknown Roman Coin

(I'm pasting this same intro into all my first posts to level set. Thanks for your patience)
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Hello all,


I'm new here. Please be kind

So I recently found out about auctions for ancient coins and artifacts. I've mostly just been buying things that feel interesting or give me a good feeling. I have always loved archeology and history, and also been a minor coin collector since childhood.

I'm not really collecting as an investment, more as a form of time travel. I just love touching and holding these objects and imagining who may have held it when it was newer. Having some kind of historical context to these objects is what I am mostly after.

Also, I am strongly interested in attempting to restore everything to as close to what it looked like when it was new(er). I don't want to destroy anything, but I also do want to be "aggressive" in the restoration efforts in an attempt to do so.

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So with this unknown coin ($120) I'm looking for

1. Any info you all might think about it.
a. There was literally no description for it at all.
b. It seems to be in very good shape
c. 2.72g, 1.9cm
d. I've been told elsewhere that this is the same: http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.4.el.139b
2. Best advice to attempt to restore it.
a. I would love to make it shinier if possible
b. How do I keep it that way?

Thank you for reading and I really do appreciate your time and look forward to learning more and being part of your community.

All the best,
JJ Walker

 

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Either carracalla or Geta.

 

Dear J.J.

Unless you are near death or have more money than bra... SLOW DOWN!

These coins have been around for centuries and will still be around after you learn to spend your money wisely. For now, $120 dollars would have bought some nice used books on ancients to supplement the info on the Internet PLUS a small baby's bucket full of interesting ancients to play with while you are learning. Half the fun of collecting ancients is attributing them.

Also, for now it is best you not try to make anything shiny.

 

Elagabalus. Reverse is Salus feeding a snake. RIC IV 139 I believe.

 

Nice coin. $120 is a bit much, I think. Can probably score for half that or less

 

Yes you're right I do need to slow down. My wife isn't super psyched about this. My problem is that
1. I always dreamed of owning some ancient things like this and had no idea it was even possible.
2. I stumbled upon auctions that happened to have them and just let my excitement get the better of me.

Can you expand on why you say not to make anything more shiny? The shine isn't as important to me, as the mental feeling of seeing something in the way it was seen when it was new-ish.

 

Thank you! So you don't think it's Elagabalus?

 

Thank you. I saw that one and thought it may look the same. That's really cool. What are your thoughts about any further restoration? I read somewhere about lemon juice and foil?

 

Thanks! I do get a bit over excited.

 

This is a lot better than most people get as a first coin but still top dollar for the coin. It is a bit special because the reverse inscription carries the name of the emperor:
Health of the emperor Antoninus. There were several emperors named Antoninus. This one is popularly called Elagabalus after the name of his favorite god. He also has another type that names that god on the reverse (not to mention dozens of other types with various other gods or personifications).

It is a coin worth having. It most certainly does NOT need to be cleaned or polished. The coin is already cleaned more than most of us would prefer. This thing is 1800 years old; let it be! Most, including mine below are cleaned more than necessary and will benefit with a little toning that will come in due time. Shining it up will not make it look like it did when made. It will make it look 'strange' and reduce its value in the market.

You need to do a Google search and learn why Elagabalus is popular (hint it was not because he was a good emperor - he makes the 'other' list).

I agree that slow is better than rash and encourage you not to let your hobby attract the wrong kind of attention from your wife. Study up and pay attention to posts here to see what you might next want to acquire. There are literally a million choices. Most of us have a specialty (or a dozen specialties) but some of us try to get one of everything. Do you want just Roman, just silver, just 'bad boy' emperors, just shiny coins........? Only you can decide but make it an informed decision. Most of all, buy coins YOU like and not coin some dealer is trying to tell you that you SHOULD like. Make your own mistakes but if you want shiny coins, buy coins that are already that way rather than ruining things you do not yet understand. Post here and ask questions. We have many who will be happy to tell you what they consider to be correct. Of course you will get several different opinions on what to buy and how much is too much to pay.

 

JJ Walker, asked: "Can you expand on why you say not to make anything more shiny? The shine isn't as important to me, as the mental feeling of seeing something in the way it was seen when it was new-ish."

Sure two reasons:

#1 You don't know what you are doing.

#2 Nothing will return them to anything approaching "new-ish" condition.

 

You could, but there's really no reason to do so.

Here's an example of when a silver coin would warrant cleaning. For anything else, especially once as nice and shiny as the OP, leave it alone, please.

 

That's so cool! Thank you for that tidbit. TBH it didn't occur to me that one could have a favorite god. I'm going to dive into why he did and learn more on this.

Ok you got it.

This is great advice. I already used the "It's nothing compared to your purse purchases" line which didn't go over well.

I really want to learn the skill of restoring coins. I guess maybe buying some poor quality/low value ones and practicing on those might be a good idea? Do you have advice where to begin?

True, but one has to learn somewhere. Guessing you mean to learn on lesser coins.

I have seen some incredible restoration work on some Luristan bronze swords (attached) that inspire me to try.

 

That's a great example thank you.

 

Derp, I should just stick with early medieval instead of Roman Sold most of my Romans anyway.


This one of Elagabalus remained because he looks somewhat like the snorty face I imagine him.

To stay within the theme: I paid the grand sum of €10 for this coin, as part of a group lot. I would happily have sold you my Roman coins.

 

While I am personally of the opinion that whoever did that to those Luristan swords should be run through with one of them, I can point out the difference between coins and swords. Coins have a very fine surface detail that will extend down into the coin a small fraction of a millimeter. A weapon may have some decorative inscribing but most are relatively plain. Removing that surface from the sword made it a tiny bit thinner but still a sword. Removing the same amount of metal from a coin will eliminate most or all of the detail dropping the 'grade' from, let's say, EF to G if not turning it into a slick slug. When we clean, we remove. The skill of cleaning to be developed is learning the difference between dirt on top of the coin and corrosion that has eaten into and modified that original surface. To be successful, cleaning needs to stop before it reaches that original surface. When coins were struck the surface of the blank was compressed compacting it compared to the center part of the coin. This was made even worse when 'silver' coins reached a place where the silver was alloyed over 50% with base metals. You Elagabalus is probably about 50% silver. Many mints capitalized on this fact by soaking blanks in an acid the would dissolve some of the surface copper leaving a bit of a spongy surface that was higher grade silver in comparison to the center of the coin. When struck with the die, this sponge compressed into a thin, relatively high silver content skin over the more debased core. If you clean off that skin, you do major damage to the coin detail. There is no process that reverses the corrosion retaining the shape that was there before it corroded.

Certainly we suggest learning on lesser coins. However it is really hard to find prime candidates to clean because the people who find these coins tend to sell them to wholesalers who are master at deciding which ones are worth cleaning and which to sell to amateurs that want to play coin restorer. When you do find truly uncleaned and unsorted coins, they may not be cheap. Uncleaned coins are like scratch off lottery tickets. Most lose their value when scratched because everyone is hoping they got the one in a million that pays off big time. You might find cleaning fun but it is not the way to get great looking (let alone shiny) coins for the collection. Most of us have cleaned some coins at some point. Most of us have lowered the value of those coins. Cleaning is a separate hobby. My related hobby is coin photography. I destroy fewer coins when taking their pictures. So, if you start with really cheap, really bad coins and make a 1% improvement in them, great. Just do not expect to wash away the dirt and find a sparkling gem below. If it were that easy, the first guy in the chain of custody since that coin left the ground would have cleaned it himself. If you buy a hundred 'cleaners', you might find 10% that you can improve and 2% that you can make half decent. Sparkling bright and original surfaces are like lottery tickets that had all the right numbers. Some of the coins you have shown here are types worth several hundred or thousand dollars in perfect condition. The ones you have are not reversible but several have been half decent 'as-is'. After you have handled a few hundred thousand coins, you might develop the knack of telling which you can improve and which you will sell off to someone who knows less than you do. That is not my hobby. Perhaps it will be yours. Meanwhile you will need a lot of practice. Start with cheap coins.

 

Amen Doug!

I’ve been collecting for about 40 years. At the 20 year mark (i.e., no longer a novice) I thought I’d investigate cleaning. I soon realized that cleaning needs a separate skill set and education process. The big time sellers have staff that learn to clean coins to keep a steady stock flowing. I respect this skill, but cleaning a coin is not the same as restoring a car. Cleaning is not restoring. As Doug stated, coin surfaces are thin, fragile and subject to a lot of chemistry before they were dug up. Most are coming to you already cleaned - there is little more you can do in most cases. Making ok coins ugly is VERY easy.

If you need to see the coin in its mint state you have to buy a mint-state coin. That $$$ outlay will make your wife sit up and notice (I speak from experience). Take heart, there are some more reasonably priced mint-state coins, but these are getting scarce fast and take some effort to locate. Reasonably priced is still not cheap.

Welcome to collecting, or welcome to cleaning, but cleaning is NOT restoring. No matter what, have fun, and take all the advice (including mine), with a grain a salt.

- Broucheion

 

Doug Smith you are a fountain of kind words and deep knowledge. Thank you for sharing this with me. The way you described this made so much sense to me. So much apprecaited.

 

Thank you Broucheion for that. Looking at some brown stuff covering such pretty shiny stuff makes my hair stand up and want to scrape it off so much. However you all have helped me very much to appreciate it more. Much appreciated.

 

JJ. I collect items from all periods of history but enjoy ancient history the most. I collect artifacts and coins and have been doing since I was 13 years old and that was when Ike was in the White House. I was blessed in my youth with a Classical curriculum education and still study Latin almost every day. When I handle a Roman belt buckle or well circulated sestertius I wonder the same things you do. These objects are the tangible nexus between them and us. I honor and treat them like relics. I wish you as much joy as I have gotten from this hobby. PS. Get the wife a piece of ancient jewelry. You can get a nice bronze ring, Roman or Medieval, for about $35-$50 on the net. Try Vcoins.com. Several reputable dealers sell them along with coins. Once she sees that there is something in this hobby for her she may view your interests more favorably. But do NOT tell her you got the idea from someone else. I'll look forward to more of your acquisitions.