Purchase etiquette question

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Romanvs.Coinicvs, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. Hello,

    New collector. So far have purchased from online venues such as eBay, Vcoins, and MA-Shops.

    I recently purchased a small lot of Roman coins (eBay). Upon arrival, I was suspicious of the surface on a couple, and so I dipped one of the coins briefly into acetone to test that the patina was original and not a chemical additive or paint.

    Some of the patina came right off.

    It was makeup (I believe) that was smeared on to cover missing patina from the coin’s high points.

    I am choosing to keep the coin because it is a scarcer type worth well more than I paid for the entire lot.

    Had this coin not been a scarcer type, I honestly would not know how to proceed since, technically, I altered the coin when I used the acetone to reveal the fake patina.

    Do I have a right to return a coin in a case like this? I did alter the coin, but the coin has also been altered pre-sale.

    Does this answer vary depending on the source of purchase (say eBay vs. Vcoins or MA-Shops)?

    Do I need to contact each dealer/seller before purchase to ask about the coin’s surface/patina before purchase? Do I then trust the dealer/seller and not test the coin myself, or do I proceed with the acetone to verify?

    Honestly, just not sure how these things are handled, and I do understand that tooling and chemical patination (and sometimes painting a coin) are real concerns with ancients.

    Thank you for your replies.
     
    galba68, octavius, Mr.Q and 2 others like this.
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  3. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Alteration is alteration.

    Yup, returnable.

    And a discussion with the seller, to see if he/she is a faker or innocent who didn't know better.
     
  4. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    Welcome to CT
     
    ma-shops, Two Dogs and ominus1 like this.
  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The real question here is whether or not you develop a long term relationship with that dealer. Do you want to? The short answer would be to write him off as a bad source and eat the loss as not worth fighting. You could write the seller explaining the exact situation and see if and what he says in reply. Failure to reply would be a good sign that you do not want more contact. If the reply points out that lots are not returnable for any reason or that make-up is a good thing, you will know where you stand and only you can decide if there will be more purchases. One bad sale will not kill you. You might even correspond with other, future sellers before the sale asking if their coins are 'enhanced' or guaranteed to be able to pass the acetone test. There was a time that all lots of multiple coins were sold 'as-is' and it might be considered inappropriate to ask but a dealer who wants your continuing, return business and is willing to work with you could be a valuable asset. Many of us tire quickly of the uncleaned route to poor coins so the problem solves itself. If you might become a buyer of these coins by the thousands, it would be in the best interest of all concerned to sort out in advance just what you will expect and what makes you more trouble than you are worth as a potential future customer.
     
    Kentucky, galba68, Nathan B. and 7 others like this.
  6. Mac McDonald

    Mac McDonald Well-Known Member

    As a newer buyer I (would) ALWAYS contact a first-time seller to ask questions about a coin, being sure to state that you're wanting only unaltered coins, etc. I often ask sellers if they clean their coins in any way, or if, in their opinion, they think the coin has ever been cleaned or altered, even if looks like it hasn't. Helps to somewhat gauge a seller's initial response and character, establish a rapport, etc. If they seem ruffled or offended...or don't reply at all...it's a negative sign and I'd move on, pronto, and not look/go back. Any seller worth a plug-nickel will gladly answer your concerns, if no guarantee...but then if they still send you a "bad" coin you have something to remind them about when you ask for a refund.
     
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  7. Ed Snible

    Ed Snible Well-Known Member

    Not all dealers on eBay can recognize a fake patina. Email a post-acetone photo and suggest to the dealer that a supplier may be painting coins.
     
  8. Some very good suggestions observations here; thank you.

    I do want to clarify, this wasn’t a lot of crusty coins. This was a $200 lot of very nice LRBs (the good ones: well centered with complete inscriptions, strong, crisp details from good strikes, etc.). I think most would sell from $30 to $60 based on scarcity, condition, etc., from what I am seeing on Vcoins and MA-shops for similar examples.

    The reason I want know how to deal with situations like this is, I am now working towards coins in the $100/$200 range. I am not too trusting, and I believe in verifying everything.

    I have a higher trust level on Vcoins, for example, but I have also read threads here at CT that refer to still-current sellers on that site who have, at least in the past, “enhanced” coins’ patinas (my lot was not purchased from any of these sellers).

    Again, thanks to everyone for the opinions/suggestions.
     
    galba68, john-charles, AdamL and 2 others like this.
  9. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    It's nice to find a collector who is interested in coin dealer etiquette; however, from what I read and hear, there is no such thing as etiquette on Ebay. Folks that buy things can return what they bought for any reason.
     
    Kentucky, john-charles and AdamL like this.
  10. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Good question. You received the best answers so all I can add is, welcome to CT. Good luck.
     
  11. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    If you suspected something was wrong with the coin before buying it, you should not have bought it in the first place. If it wasn't until you received it, you should have called it into question with the seller and asked if you could return it for a refund.

    You cannot know that the seller of the coin altered it, and pocketed the "value" you removed from it, as he / she may well have purchased it that way. Therefore, you cannot justifiably expect the seller to refund the difference between what you thought it was worth before purchase, and what you discovered it was worth after removing the "makeup".
     
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  12. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    If you suspect a coin has been painted or otherwise enhanced, you should photograph it before you dunk it in acetone or anything else. That would help your argument for a refund.
     
    red_spork likes this.
  13. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    Any coin in the $100/$200 price range with an obviously fake patina should be returned. Any coin in the $10/20 range should be cleaned up and kept. In between? Depends on how good it looks after you've removed the fake patina. One warning, though: when you remove a fake patina, you are "altering" the coin. A dealer not interested in return business from you could refuse to take it back because of this alteration: one more sleazeball dealer to avoid in the future.
     
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Exactly! May I point out that a few dollars spent learning which sellers are 'sleazeballs' might be worth a lot more in the long run than was lost in the first place. I have half a dozen dealers who have provided over half of my coins AND from whom I first bought over 30 years ago. My favorite sellers from 50 years ago have all retired or passed away. They all have one thing in common. They are NOT 'sleazeballs'. If you discover a seller who does deserve that term and you continue to patronize him, perhaps you are being a mite stupid??? From what you have shown, your source dealer may be OK although a couple of the coins do seem a but high priced for what I see. Having high prices is not in itself 'sleazy' unless it is accompanied by bad service, bad attitude and flat out lies.
     
  15. Hello,

    I do take your point/advice, but I think you have me confused with another user (JJ Walker, perhaps), as I haven’t provided any photos/price details of the coin I reference in my original query.

    I guess I should add a bit more detail given the recent replies to the thread.

    First, it was not at all obvious from the photos that the coin had been altered. Not at all. The colors were proper (unlike the colors on the coins in the old threads of the Vcoins dealers who added coloring/glue to their coins).

    It was not until I received and held/examined the coin under magnification that I became suspicious.

    An acetone dip of 15 seconds removed the makeup used to cover the high spots of the coin. My wife confirmed the oily powder was a type of foundation makeup that women use (I’m taking her word for this). :)

    I do understand the dealer may have purchased the coin like this. BUT… the dealer runs a large coin foundation overseas (Middle East). I expect him to have much more experience with coins than I do. If I can spot this fake patina, then why did HE not spot it? Does this not make him more responsible than me?

    Yes, I altered the coin… I removed a fake powder from the surface used to obscure the fact that the coin had been more harshly cleaned. The original remaining patina is perfectly intact. This is how the coin would have looked “pre-powdering.” So, I do not feel like I really altered the coin. I feel like I removed a fake powder that someone applied and which the very experienced dealer should have recognized prior to selling the coin.

    I hope this is more clear.

    As I said up thread, I plan to keep the coin because it seems to be a more scarce type. The rest of the coins are very nice, so I am further ahead.

    I posed this question because I can see (based on similar/older threads here) that this is a concern for collectors of ancient coins, and I want to understand what I should/should not do to confirm my suspicions about suspect coins and how to approach a dealer in that event.

    No harm intended. Not trolling.

    Thanks to the responders for the advice/opinions.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  16. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    I meant to write "repeat business".
     
  17. Factor

    Factor Well-Known Member

    Being a collector of Judaean city coins for over 20 years, one thing that I learned is that one should not expect a natural patina on coins from that region. Pretty much every coin is repatriated to look more appealing, usually way before it gets to the Ebay or VCoins dealer we purchase coins from. I personally don't see much problems in this practice, as far as it just masks some surface defects and doesn't cover any details. Sellers rarely specifically disclose artificial patinas, because it would be rather an exception not to have it, and it is kinda presumed. Many coins are also tooled and smoothed (not as much in LRB) and that's a different story. Overall, I personally would not even consider returning a coin over fake patina or discussing it with a dealer.
     
  18. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

    @Factor - repatriated or repatinated (darn you auto-corrupt)
     
  19. Factor

    Factor Well-Known Member

    :banghead:apparently repatination is not in autocorrect dictionary...
     
    Burton Strauss III likes this.
  20. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Respectfully disagree sir. Acetone should never damage a valid coin. He could have just done an acetone bath before a renwax coating, as is suggested. Upon concealed damage being revealed, the seller should 100% be responsible. He may go back to HIS dealer, but absolutely something as innocuous as acetone cannot damage an undamaged coin. This is intentional deception, and the buyer would have recourse.

    What would everyone say if someone soaked a coin in distilled water and properly dried it? If something dissolved with water, would the answer be the same?

    I agree it could be a dangerous game. If someone does truly treat a coin with a dangerous chemical and damages it, then I agree a return is not allowable.

    Just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  21. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    I understand, and am not unsympathetic to the buyer's circumstance, but consider, if you will, what happens when someone buys a straight-graded coin in a TPG holder and breaks it out to include it in his / her collection, and discovers it to be altered? The chain of responsibility has, for all intents and purposes, been broken. How does that differ from the case described here?
     
    Kentucky likes this.
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