Why no more provincials?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by JayAg47, Oct 4, 2021.

  1. JayAg47

    JayAg47 Well-Known Member

    I am not sure if there are Roman provincial coins other than the follis/siliqua/gold exist from the eastern provinces, but I haven't seen one from the Constantine dynasty onward.
    What happened to those chunky Alexandrian 'tetradrachms', or those various bronze Greek denominations?
    An Alexandrian tetradrachm of Diocletian (286/287 AD). normal_download_281529.jpg
     
    Bing, Spaniard, furryfrog02 and 5 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Good question. The provincial issues ended by the time of Claudius II, however the potin tetradrachms of Alexandria continued to be issued down to the tetrarchy until Diocletian reformed the coinage and Imperial issues began circulating in Egypt. Prior to this Egypt was a closed economy where only Alexandrian coins were legal tender. One theory on the demise of the provincial bronze coinage is that once it was worth more than a debased antoninianus it made no sense to issue them anymore.
     
    sand, Spaniard, furryfrog02 and 6 others like this.
  4. Evan Saltis

    Evan Saltis OWNER - EBS Numis LLC Supporter

    Well, while we are speaking of him, here is one of mine.
    claudius II Alexandria tetradrachm.jpg
     
    JayAg47, Bing, Spaniard and 6 others like this.
  5. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Galerius was the last to have them issued. This particular date isn't the last, but close.

    [​IMG]
    Galerius (305 - 311 A.D.)
    Egypt, Alexandria
    Potin Tetradrachm
    O: GAL MAXIMIANOC K; Laureate and cuirassed bust right.
    R: Nike advancing right, holding wreath and palm. L - Γ across fields.
    Alexandria mint, AD 294/295
    22mm
    8.15g
    Emmett 4230(3)a, Dattari 6150

    Scarce

    Published on Wildwinds
     
    Theodosius, JayAg47, sand and 10 others like this.
  6. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Diocletian did away with all provincial coinage with his currency reform of AD 294. He wanted uniformity of coinage throughout the empire ;).
     
  7. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    Here's my favorite Diocletian.

    I think it's very neat that Egypt existed as such a closed economy for so long, despite being part of Rome for ever.
    Diocletian Tet Milne 4915.JPG
     
    JayAg47, Bing, Spaniard and 5 others like this.
  8. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I should add that the demise of the provincial coinage sounded the death knell for municipal elites who struck the provincial coins and typically paid for upkeep in the cities, such as gymnasia, baths, public squares, and so on. There was a robust civic life in the Hellenized cities of the east which collapsed with the demise of the coinage. The urban elites were bankrupted by inflation and the flood of millions of nearly worthless antoniniani.
     
    JayAg47, Spaniard, DonnaML and 4 others like this.
  9. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

  10. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    Severus Alexander and JayAg47 like this.
  11. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/r...fine-della-monetazione-autonoma-alessandrina-

    In Italian.

    Here's one of the later Alexandrian provincials:

    [​IMG]
    EGYPT, Alexandria. Domitius Domitianus
    RY 2 (297-8 CE)
    potin tetradrachm/hexagram/othergram; 9.56 gm, 23 mm
    Obv: ΔOMITIANOCCEB; laureate head right
    Rev: draped bust of Serapis to right, LB left and palm to right
    Ref: Dattari 6186; Emmett 4242
     
  12. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I have no Roman Provincial coins from Alexandria later than Claudius II and Probus:

    Claudius II Gothicus, potin Tetradrachm, 269/270 AD (Year 2), Alexandria, Egypt mint. Obv. Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right, AVT K KΛAYΔIOC CEB / Rev. Eagle standing left, head right, holding wreath in beak, L-B (Year 2) across fields. Emmett 3879.2, Milne 4247, Dattari 5412. 20 mm., 9.28 g, 12 h.

    [​IMG]

    Probus, billon tetradrachm, 277-278 AD (Year 3), Alexandria, Egypt Mint. Obv. Laureate and cuirassed bust right, A K M AV ΠPOBOC CEB / Rev. Eirene [= Pax] standing left, holding transverse scepter with left hand and olive branch with right; L Γ [Year 3] in lower left field. Dattari 5529, Emmett 3986, Milne 4551, Köln (Geissen) 3132, Sear RCV III 12124 (ill.). 23 mm., 8.7 g., 12 h. Purchased from JAZ Numismatics Auction 183, May 2021, ex. Sallent Collection, ex. Bertolami e-auction 41, lot 292, April 30, 2017

    [​IMG]

    However, I do have a few Roman Imperial coins minted in Alexandria after the Diocletian reforms. To me, except perhaps for the last one a little bit, they look far more like other Late Roman Imperial coins than they look like pre-294 AD coins minted in Alexandria (which had a basically consistent style for almost 300 years):

    Fausta (wife of Constantine I and daughter of Maximian), Billon reduced Centenionalis, Alexandria Mint (First Officina) 326 AD. Obv. Draped bust right, FLAV MAX FAVSTA AVG / Rev. Veiled Fausta standing facing, head left, holding two small children [representing Constantine II Caesar and Constantius II Caesar?]* in her arms, SPES REIP-VBLICAE; in exergue, SMALA [Alexandria, First Officina]. RIC VII Alexandria 40 (p. 709), Sear RCV IV 16582. 19 mm., 2.92 g. Ex. Dr. Frank Sternberg Collection, Sternberg I, Zurich, Nov. 30-Dec. 1, 1973, part of Lot 524 (catalogue p. 61).

    [​IMG]

    * Sear argues (see Sear RCV V at p. 77) that the two children depicted were Constantius II and Constans, asserting that Constantine II was not Fausta’s son. This is a minority view.

    Constans (son of Constantine I), AE Centenionalis, Alexandria Mint (1st Officina) 348-350 AD. Obv. Draped and cuirassed bust left, wearing pearl diadem and holding globe in right hand, D N CONSTA - NS P F AVG / Rev. Emperor in military dress, standing left and holding labarum in right hand and shield in left, placing right foot on leg of one of two captives before him with hands bound behind their backs, wearing Phrygian caps and kneeling facing with their heads turned towards one another, FEL TEMP REPARATIO. ALEA [Alexandria Mint, 1st Officina] in exergue. RIC VIII 56(A) (p. 542), Sear RCV V 18706. 20 mm., 3.45 g. (Purchased from Harlan J. Berk, Ltd., 211th Buy or Bid Sale, 2020, Lot 302.)
    [​IMG]

    Theodosius I, AE3 (Sear: Centenionalis), 379-383 AD, Alexandria mint, 3rd Officina. Obv. D N THEODOSIVS P F AVG - Diademed (Pearls), draped and cuirassed bust right / Rev. CONCORDIA AVGGG - Constantinopolis, helmeted, seated facing on throne, head right, holding spear and globe, right foot on prow. ALE(Γ) [gamma] in exergue. RIC IX 11 (p. 300), Sear RCV V 20535. 17.72 mm, 1.9 g.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I believe that between Gallienus and Claudius II, the coinage output of Rome was mostly outsourced to provincial mints.

    I imagine that local exchange rates were probably fixed, e.g. 1 Antoninianus = N Assaria or whatever local equivalent. Given that the antoninianus was nominally worth 8 sesterces even as fineness fell under 2%, it just made sense to make imperial coins that consumed much less raw materials.

    I had read somewhere (forget where) that in addition to wanting Alexandria on the same standard as the rest of the empire, Diocletian also ended the tetradrachm there as punishment for the usurpation of Domitius Domitianus.

    I have also heard it argued that the coinage of Rhescuporis V of Bosporus (ca 325) could be counted as the last provincial coins, as they feature Constantine and/or Licinius on them.
     
  14. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Yes, they switched over to the banal artistic style of the tetrarchs in Alexandria very quickly, then the LRB typical style after that. I wonder what the mint personnel thought about it.
     
    JayAg47, TIF and DonnaML like this.
  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Alexandria was a special case with its closed economy. Most other cities stopped issuing Provincials years before the Diocletian reform stopped Alexandria. Below are my latest Provincials that are NOT from Alexandria. Who has other, later Provincials?

    Claudius II AE25 Antioch
    pq2620bb2364.jpg

    Macrianus AE24 Nicaea and Byzantium
    pp2610rp1919.jpg
     
  16. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Great coin @TIF. I have been looking for a tet/octodrachm of Domitius for some time and they are not cheap. He also struck coins in the new style for a time until Diocletian defeated him and sacked Alexandria. Interestingly in Luxor they are currently excavating a legionary fortress from the Diocletian era (German team) which may have been used as a base for the defense against the Blemmeyes and/or as a citadel intended to keep the population of Upper Egypt in line.
     
    JayAg47, DonnaML and TIF like this.
  17. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Another way to ask the question may be "why did it take so long for Rome to impose a single currency system across the empire?"

    Regarding the Alexandrian coinage, I find it interesting that the Byzantine 12 nummi and the Umayyad fulus of Alexandria share the familiar dumpy fabric of the later imperial tetradrachms. Some habits are hard to beak.
     
  18. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    This provincial should be well after the reform, even though it's exact purpose is a bit of a mystery.
    ri256.jpg
    Alexandria mint
    Obvs: DEO SARAPIDI, Bearded bust of Sarapis right, wearing modius.
    Revs: GENIO ALEXAND. Alexandria reclining left, rudder in right hand. MS
    AE 11x12mm, 0.97g
    Ref: Vagi --; Van Heesch 9
     
  19. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I thought the current consensus is that these aren't necessarily coins at all, but some sort of token issued in connection with the Festival of Isis.
     
    dougsmit likes this.
  20. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    For anyone interested, here's a link to an excellent page at tesorillo regarding these issues: https://www.tesorillo.com/isis/intro1.htm
     
    JayAg47 likes this.
  21. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    "Why no more Provincials ?"
    Under Caracalla, 350 workshops were in operation. There was then a slow decline between the reigns of Elagabalus and Valerian, then a drastic fall after 260.
    The end of provincial coinage can be explained by four internal and external factors which interacted: 1) a rise in prices which made obsolete the use of bronze, the value of which had not ceased to be modified since the 250s. 2) production costs too high for the local authorities, who were able to turn to other practices of self-celebration. 3) a reduction in the stock of metal locally available because it was hoarded or mobilized for the striking of radiated coins in the imperial workshops. 4) a flood of the market by this same devalued denomination.
    Thus the provincial coins disappeared, not as a result of an economic disaster but rather of a "currency collapse" (according to Butcher 1988) which occurred following a crisis in the system of imperial government.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page