Things we just can't identify

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by seth77, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    I'd like this to become an ongoing thread about things that we just could not identify properly, although they are detailed enough to grant an identification. These things can often be confusing and frustrating but provide a constant source of mystery and a riddle to be (eventually) solved.

    I'll start:

    s-l1600.jpg

    PB 16mm 1.55g tessera mercantile, cca. 14-15th century.
    Shield with coat of arms flanked by two annulets/letters(?) and an open crown on top, inside wired border.
    RE... O... CVS(?) (gothic lettering); Cross pattee.

    A very tentative identification could be made based mostly on the shield with the coat of arms that seems to be similar to the one used by either the Count of Ravensberg or the Hause of Hanau during the reign of Ulrich III von Hanau (1343/6-1369/70) or Ulrich IV (1369/70-1380). The Gothic lettering though might indicate a later date, sometime in the 15th century. The overall appearance of the coin is made to emulate the billon coinage of the Middle Ages, the denier or the pfennig or the mite.

    Similar shield with similar coat of arms appears also on a very rare pfennig of Voorst from around 1300, see here.

    Both Hanau (Ulrich IV Sire of Hanau, folio 28r) and Voorst (Gauthier van Voorst, folio 88v) coats of arms are depicted in the Gerle Wapenboek, alongside the coat of arms of the Count of Ravensberg (folio 37v), which means they were in use before 1395-1402 (or cca. 1370-1414, when herald Claes Heinenszoon, the author of the armorial was likely active), which would also correspond with the dating of this tessera on stylistic grounds.

    The armorial shows other similar coats of arms like:

    - Walter Manny (Sire de Masny, 1st Baron Manny, c.1347-1372, folio 3v, 84r)
    - Eberhard I von Eppenstein (Sire of Eppenstein, c.1360-1391, folio 32r)
    - Yon III de Garencieres (Sire of Garencieres and Baudemont, cca. 1370/80-1400, folio 51v)
    - Earls de Clare of Gloucester (folio 57v)
    - Gauthier van Wesele (Sire of Sombeke, folio 74r)
    - Arnold van Born (Sire of Elsloo, folio 75r)
    - Jean de Grijspere (folio 82r)

    A connection with any of these lords would be a very interesting and novel historical detail. If this 'tessera' (token) was minted for any of these lords, perhaps the conditions were similar to the ones applied to the monastic mints that were allowed to coin lead money by the lord suzerain.

    An example of lead coinage in the Holy Roman Empire from Abbaye St. Aldegonde - Maubeuge:

    lead tokens.jpg
    (From Kunker Auction 121 De Wit Collection, p. 429)
     
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  3. ancientone

    ancientone Well-Known Member

    That's a groovy coin @seth77! I love a good mystery.

    If anybody can identify one of these I will eat my hat.

    Clipboard7~3~0.jpg
    Uncertain AE16
    Obv: Geta? as Ceasar bust r.
    Rev: Isis? in distyle temple. [.....]WN


    unknownProv~0.jpg
    Uncertain Empress AE16
    Obv: Empress facing r.
    Rev: Athena standing left, wearing Corinthian helm, holding transverse spear and resting hand on shield.


    Domna.jpg
    Uncertain Julia Domna AE22 / Artemis
    Obv: IOVLIA C[EBAST]H / Domna right.
    Rev: Artemis standing facing, head r. with bow in her right hand and quiver at shoulder, stag left.
    22-23mm.
     
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  4. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Fun idea for a thread!

    I never could really get into medieval coins, so I have no idea on yours.

    A few of my favorite mysteries-

    Unknown AE10
    Kushan or late scythian sphere of influence?
    Helmeted head right/ Figure in tunic, holding thunderbolts?
    Unknown AE helmeted bust standing figure.jpg

    Unknown crude hemiobol, possibly celtic?
    Crude turreted head left
    Uncertain legend AHV/MV/DV?
    Celtic AR unknown.jpg

    Got this one in a lot of Judaean procurator coins, but it seems maybe crusader era?
    AE15, cross / anchor
    ZomboDroid 07022020115558.jpg

    This was one of the first Greek coins I ever bought, kept telling myself I would figure it out, but after looking through tens of thousands of Greek coins in auctions, I've still never seen a match.
    AE21
    Bearded head right
    Figure standing left, holding (nike?), MTP monogram to left, uncertain legend to right
    ZomboDroid 17092021142607.jpg
     
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  5. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

  6. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Great idea for a thread @seth77 .

    I’m by no means competent at identifying medieval coins but this one has be stumped so far.
    99EF304E-BB4A-450F-B698-95007830A6F3.jpeg
     
  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    @ancientone:

    This one is Plautilla, the wife of Caracalla.

    [​IMG]
    Uncertain Empress AE16
    Obv: Empress facing r.
    Rev: Athena standing left, wearing Corinthian helm, holding transverse spear and resting hand on shield.
     
  8. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Neither am I;) She's a rare beauty though. Coingrats my man! I get the appeal. This one wasn't easy for me either!
    Here is what I found on a very similar coin of mine:
    share4772956327137504441.png
    Feudal coins
    AUVERGNE - BISHOPRIC OF LE PUY - ANONYMOUS
    Obole AR, 1200-1290 CE, Mint name / Town : Le Puy, 18 mm
    1 h. 1,00 g.
    Rarity : R3
    Obverse : + POIES, Croix aux bouts arrondis
    Reverse: .+. DELPVEI, Rosace à six feuilles
    Bd.374 (5 f.) - PA.2238 (49/3)
    Ex: Zeus
     
  9. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    I'm going to take a stab at this one utilizing logic/deduction.

    Bearded deity = Zeus? Herakles? Poseidon?
    Figure standing/resting on shield? Holding Nike? = Athena

    Cilicia, Aigeai
    Obverse: Laureate head of Zeus.
    Reverse: AIΓEAIΩN; Athena Nikephoros standing left, holding Nike and resting hand on shield; spear to right.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  10. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    They are both deniers of Le Puy-en-Velay but not from the 13th century but from the 11th century.
     
  11. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    You guys are both awesome. Thanks for the help. :) Now I’ll be able to spend several hours reading up on the history of this beautiful medieval town. :bookworm::D
    DE46F860-AF4A-47CC-BB9A-0E8B5E400DE9.jpeg
     
  12. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    This coin appears to be in a condition that should make it identifiable but I was not successful at all.
    upload_2021-9-18_21-59-15.png

    The closest match I could find is RPC IV.1, 6616 (temporary)
    upload_2021-9-18_22-0-47.png
    Marcus Aurelius, Amphipolis but I don't think this is correct.
     
  13. ancientone

    ancientone Well-Known Member

    Thank you RC. I've had quite a few people look at this coin with no luck so I'm calling it my "eternal search coin" for now.
     
  14. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    Early in my collecting career I bought a group of uncleaned coins confident I could identify them all. Nope. Not a chance. I gained huge respect for the dealers and collectors who identify these things for us. It’s a heck of a lot harder than it looks.

    I was recently asked by a metal detectorist mate of mine if I thought a find (legally made) was of a rare emperor. Now that I’ve been at it for some years I confidently told him it could not be of that emperor (wrong coin type). Who is it? No problem, I assured him.

    Nope. Not a chance. Though it was in decent shape, the inscription could have gone about a dozen ways — darn those hard carved characters — and none made any sense. The portrait is never my strong suit anyway, but this could have been my next door neighbor for all I could tell.

    Now I’m even more in awe of you guys. If it was left up to me all the coins in my collection would be labelled: Obverse: Portrait of Dead Roman Dude, words around the perimeter read: It’s Good To Be King. Reverse: Fit woman holding cup, words around the perimeter read: Soy Double Latte For Diana With One ‘N’
     
  15. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

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  16. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I’m pretty good at identifying imperial coins. Often it’s a few letters that make the whole difference
     
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  17. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    He wanted it to Proculus (who wouldn’t?) but it was an AE. He tried a few dealers before someone convinced him otherwise.
     
  18. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    Another impossible identification -- Virgin Mary (twice, because of double-strike) crowning emperor. Possibly Palaiologan S.2271, S.2298 or 2340?

    picture1.JPG
    AE22x18 0.99g
     
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  19. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member

    I think this one has a chance of being attributed but I am failing. Very small, very light. The obverse is its only saving grace. Christ blessing kneeling ruler.

    15.4mm at largest, weight .3gm, yes .3gm.

    c4.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
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  20. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

  21. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member

    @seth77 , I am convinced you are correct. The obverse of Arch Angel Michael is gone but the line of the design on the right is there. I had checked Bendall and Lianti and the Baker book but I saw no match's there except some similarities to Andronicus III. Thank You sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
     
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