Die States, or, The Journey of a Die from First Strike to Terminal State

Absolutely terrific information thank you for all you put into this post!

By the way your subnote: All posts are the opinions of the author. I reserve the right to change my mind with new facts, experience, opinions, or viewpoints....

Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw where the Dr tells the patient "This is a second opinion. At first I thought you had something else."

 

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There's more than a grain of honest truth in his statement - his original post was 7 years ago. In this case, the information presented is of a persistent type unlikely to change with time, but numismatics is constantly changing as new information comes to light. It's one of the things which irritates me greatly about old threads being bumped - the information presented might have been completely discredited since and then we have to explain that, too.

 

TTT.
Because I can.

 

Since both sets of links I posted are now broken, here is a new set of images of some of the stages of the 1804 C-6 half cent rev. Only 7 stages this time.

Manley 2.0 This is an early die stage but even here much of the rev legend shows die cracks.


Manley 4.5 early to mid die stage we have a retained cud forming under UN, a strong retained cud at ME, an additional radial crack at C.


Manley 9.0 Mid to late stage full cuds from fraction to UN, to the left of A2, and over MERIC.


Manley 9.5 Mid to late stage. Difficult to see but the area about I in UNITED is sinking. (This coin is double struck, that has nothing to do with the die stage.)


Manley 10.2 to 10.5 mid to late die stage. Cud now extends over I in UNITED, and from MERCIA to below ribbon end. Die chipping at top left of M, hole above M is smaller than on M 10.2, but larger than on M 10.5.


Manley 11.0 late die stage, cud extends over all of M.


Manley 12.0 late die stage, retained cud developing over O.

 

Great article! As one who deals in doubled dies I can absolutely attest to the importance of die state. The difference in the clarity of the hubbings can be dramatic between an EDS and an LDS coin.

Below is a near terminal 1918-D 8/7 5c obv die.

 

out of 10.00 in cents, found 130 with same die crack, then progresses to struck through in same spot for 15 or so , with and without the die crack, most with both

 

Very informative article, and thanks for pointing out the TPG's scam concerning First Strikes and Early Releases.

 

Thank you. Definitely a keeper!

 

"If you were to take every coin ever struck by a die, theoretically you would be able to line them up from the very first strike to the very last, just by examining the wear on the die. " I'm probably confused again, but wouldn't you look at the coin condition rather than the die? Also, I always assumed that dies used for striking proofs were used for business strikes when the proof run was finished. Are there changes made at this changeover or is there just a gradual decline in the quality from proof to business? I enjoyed the post!

 

@lordmarcovan was kind enough to unlock my original post so that I could restore the pictures. Thanks for bumping this thread!

 

You don't have the die, so you examine the coin which shows the result of gradual wearing of the die.

In some, but not all, cases in the 19th century the proof dies were used for business strikes after the die was retired from proof production.

In some cases in the later half of the 20th century business strike and proof dies used slightly different hub designs and sometimes dies hubbed with the proof design were used (probably accidentally) for making business strikes. This happened with Franklin halves, Washington quarters, Roosevelt dimes and Lincoln cents. (The 1998,99, and 2000 WAM cents are the result of a die from a proof hub being used for business strikes). It is also where the Unc 1999 W 1/10 and 1/4 oz gold eagles came from.