What style of grading for technical AU58 coins would you prefer from the TPGs?

Q65 AU

 

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ddddd, posted: "Mint stuck" and "Mint state" are different terms."

Simple to understand and absolutely correct. I don't even know how "Mint Struck" got into this discussion.

imrich, posted: "I clarified a mint-struck/mint-state coin as being without damage, being delivered directly from the mint. The Morgan Dollars in sealed bags were often damaged by handling, being possibly either circulated or mint state.

I personally have dropped a mint state coin onto a concrete floor, changing the coin state from uncirculated to about-uncirculated. [With all due respect, you have shown a complete lack of knowledge in your opinions such as this and it is not your fault. Numismatic educators and the ANA have failed us all. Simply put: Your MS coin IS STILL IN 100% MS CONDITION AS IT LEFT THE PRESS EXCEPT NOW IT HAS A BAD RIM! I can take a freshly struck coin (Mint State) from the coin press - drill a hole through it AND IT IS STILL MINT STATE WITH A HOLE! The term Mint State formerly referred to NO TRACE OF FRICTION WEAR! Otherwise anything that happens to a coin REMOVES IT FROM MS CONDITION and that is just plain STUPID!! (not you )]. The damage to the MS67 coin was far in excess of mint-struck/state condition. I respect your intellect enough to believe you know the difference between damaged and mint-state coins..."

So...Once a coin is considered to be MS, anything detracting on it lowers its ranking from 70 down to 60. It can NEVER drop into the circulated range. What does drop is its VALUE and that's why even an XF+ coin can be worth more than a MS example just because of its eye appeal. That's commercial grading.

 

I totally agree with this explanation. It makes no sense dropping a mint state coin to AU just because it was damaged while in mint state. Now if one took that coin and carried it in their pocket for a while, causing the high points to wear, then it could be considered AU.

 

I'm guessing because it was circulated...in your pocket. Now, if you put it in a flip and carried it, it's still uncirculated...no wear (friction)

 

I thank you for your stellar opinion/knowledge of commercial grading standards, which definitely exceed mine.

I understand your positions on grading, but would defer to the courts for an objective decision, such as are believed previously decided.

It's believed that the courts would find that the grading standards were written to describe coin conditions that might be expected from a natural mint striking/handling process, prior to human handling as when "circulated".

I believe court precedents exist for coins that have been altered by handling after the initial shipment from the mint, or by natural deterioration as described in the "standards" (i.e. die deterioration/maintenance, toning, etc.).

If grading records unnatural deterioration on the slab (e.g. MS67 scratched/bag-marked/excessively-toned) the coin is mint-state altered, as I believe you've properly stated.

The absence of coin-state alterations documentation may appreciably effect/change value, and possible court damages awarded.

JMHO

 

Kentucky, posted: "I'm guessing because it was circulated...in your pocket. Now, if you put it in a flip and carried it, it's still uncirculated...no wear (friction)."

Uncirculated has always been a misleading term. Coins CAN?AND DO circulate yet show absolutely no trade of friction wear. I have personally seen extreme examples of this obvious impossibility.

@imrich Please cut the snark, get out of the courtroom, open your mind, and you just might learn something.

Coin grading is an art with two completely different approaches. You can describe a coin's actual and unique state of preservation (true technical grading that 99% of numismatists who have not been "schooled" don't understand) or you can appraise its value (modern commercial grading). No matter what anyone tells you, the two are completely different and not compatible. One choice is very subjective with more variables than I care to expand on here requiring years of experience and a knowledge of the day to day, year to year coin market (that most posting here INCLUDING ME don't have). The other is extremely easy to do with good eyesight and a knowledge of coin examination techniques.

Unfortunately, it does not benefit dealers if 95% of collectors/dealers could agree on a grade for the same coin 95% of the time! They wish to keep grading complicated with wiggle room.

If coin's were graded strictly by what they are and dealers priced them based on that we would only be arguing on the price 95% of the time and not the grade!

BTW, I'm not a commercial coin grader and cannot ever be! I just grade them as I see them.

PS I'll bet most of the court decisions you cite were for blatant over grading and coin doctoring. Otherwise, name the case so I CAN LEARN SOMETHING from you.

 

Thank you for your respected comments to an individual who started his education in this industry at 9YOA in 1949 by helping in a BM coin shop on way home from Catholic school.

I know you're familiar with legal cases/precedents as Case 2:12-cv-00401, filed in TXSD, and many others.

I'll issue a PM to you when time allows.

Respectfully, RICH

 

The only legal case dealing with coins I am familiar with that I can comment on is the one that I testified in so Case 2:12-cv-00401 reads like a foreign language from the aliens. Anyway, I have found that most B&M coin dealers know how to make money on coins. That's about it but their are exceptions and they often teach. With slabs it is even easier to be a "coin dealer."

PS Years in coins as a collector/dealer mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with regard to knowledge. I learned that 50 years ago when I ran up against dealers who had been in business before I was born! There are YN's with more knowledge than most collectors.

 

I respect your knowledge pertaining to grading practices, as you must recognize by my "likes" when you posted useful information that would advance collectors in their pursuit for Numismatic education.

Although I've taught advanced adult education classes in various subjects, I'm certain I couldn't teach you anything.

An interesting legal "sidebar" which I believe you'll understand is: after constantly collecting and working with Numismatic facilities for more than 40 years, in 1990, If allowed, I believe I'd have been a credible witness with evidentiary material for the FTC. The same for Alan Hager, Mark Yaffe, Hannes Tulving, and others.

I hope to be the same in the future, when our knowledge is possibly of importance.

JMHO

 

Unfortunately, until all the subjective factors such as eye appeal and especially value are separated from grading, there will always be disagreements/discussions even among the top professionals in the business including those included by "and others."

This was done with "True" technical grading when two virtually flawless "gem" Morgan dollars would be graded MS-65 and MS-65, Flat strike although their value and eye appeal were completely different.

PS I learn things about coins from just about everyone including YN's and even non-collectors.

 

Eye appeal certainly differs...

 

Looks like Mr Bean restored that one.

 

I thought @Jaelus, @imrich, and others would like to read this link posted in another discussion. I see one change that should be made by PCGS ASAP in order to make their explanation much better and closer to reality. Who can find what should be changed?

Hint: The definitions are good. Look at their comments - the "big picture" of the subject and don't get bogged down in the details.

 

There's a lot wrong with it. But I would start with that they don't adhere to these grading principles, and use market grading instead.

 

As one accused of being "snarky" (i.e. sarcastic, impertinent, or irreverent in tone or manner), I'd need to present the original (1977) A.N.A. published Standard to a Jurist/court, that's believed to contradict the herewithin stated/argued definition for MS60 grading of a Morgan dollar.

Please pardon my comment after eye surgery today, as I may have misread.

JMHO

 

cataracts?

 

The only thing that gave me any pause was the mention of "abrasions" for the 60 coins. I equate abrasions with wear...

 

Yes, 2nd eye in 2 weeks, which really seemingly hampers reading, etc..

 

Did you have a choice of lenses and which did you get? BTW glad you're OK

 

I've got a Chevy