What style of grading for technical AU58 coins would you prefer from the TPGs?

"Mint stuck" and "Mint state" are different terms and that is where the source of disagreement lies. I don't believe mint struck has ever been the dividing point between AU and MS. After any coin is struck, it goes through other steps before leaving the mint, so almost no business strike coin is in the same condition as the moment it was struck (unless it's something like a presentation piece or a proof coin which is carefully handled immediately after being struck).

 

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Au-58

 

No

 

We're in agreement that a coin may be sent from the Mint with some deterioration, but I'd defy someone to enter court with a mint packaged/delivered coin in the deteriorated state of that coin with believed severe damage and chemically altered/deteriorated? surfaces. An objective court would virtually be forced to declare the coin ALMOST Mint-State, regardless of current Market desired/graded practices.

A precedent for a ALMOST Mint-State court decision would be the PCI trial where a coin was believed to be found ungradeable because of a scratch. The worth-less argument was believed opinioned by a top tier grading specialist, thus having an appreciably diminished value for the seller/defendant.

JMHO

 

What would you consider the 2011 25th Anniversary 5 coin Silver Eagle set? Those coins were known to arrive already toned (if the capsules weren't fully sealed, the mint packaging caused the toning in a fairly short period as they were in the process of shipping).

Also, what would you say about rainbow toned Morgans that went directly from the mint to storage in banks-never to circulate or be touched for years)?

And in general, you continue to describe "Mint Struck" and if we were in court, we would not be arguing about "mint struck" but mint state (which has a definition of not being circulated).

 

When I read the opinion and description, I asked myself, isn't every legal circulating and legal non- circulating coin "Mint Struck"?
Then I asked myself, isn't every coin at the time of the completion of the coining process Mint State, until it is disseminated?
I got confused. Yes, yes, my mind wanders. There is a reason.

 

Using your interpretation (which I can see being reasonable), every coin struck at the mint is Mint Struck.

 

I thought that was in my first sentence. I don't know anymore what I mean. Whos on first?

All I know is I am not going to court over it . I can't find the TP half the time now, and I don't want to make more krap for myself.

 

It was; I was confirming what you said by repeating it.

 

That statement belongs in the roll hunting thread.

 

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I warned you , my mind wanders. Sue me What did I say, again?

 

Basically:
"every coin struck at the mint is Mint Struck"

 

That was good! Word play is the bomb.

 

That was pretty good, then. It must have have been a lucid moment for me.

 

One thing I do believe is that every coin begins to tone at the time it was struck.
Some coins depending on storage will take years to even show the slightest change, others, you can't stop from toning, so it is dipped depending on the colors/look.
58 flat packs infact all flat packs were known to tone easily.
Reading back on some of the previous posts. Toning should never count against the grade. Unless it is blatantly AT.

I picked this coin up the other day, with this thread in mind. I just thought that it was a good candidate for the AU/MS discussion.
That is if @Jaelus wants to give this his Q grade.


Here are a couple cell phone shots of the surfaces.

 

I clarified a mint-struck/mint-state coin as being without damage, being delivered directly from the mint. The Morgan Dollars in sealed bags were often damaged by handling, being possibly either circulated or mint state.

I personally have dropped a mint state coin onto a concrete floor, changing the coin state from uncirculated to about-uncirculated. The damage to the MS67 coin was far in excess of mint-struck/state condition. I respect your intellect enough to believe you know the difference between damaged and mint-state coins.

A prominent grading specialist in a court precedent, according to the transcript I remember viewing, stated that scratches are unacceptable circulated damage for grading. If you viewed the close-up as I, having received a "details" rating on more than one coin for a singular scratch, you may accept the Mint-State grade as questionable, regardless of preferred toning.

Thanks for the thought evoking queries.

JMHO

 

We will just have to agree to disagree.
To me dropping or scratching a coin does not change it from uncirculated to about uncirculated. It changes it from uncirculated problem free (straight grade) to uncirculated problem (details grade).

 

I have issues with some uncirculated coins with small scratches getting a details grade, whereas another coin with many nicks and other distracting marks gets a straight grade, even though the cumulative damage area is less with the scratched coin.

 

You'll get no argument out of me, as the TPG often will "detail" a coin with a single scratch, while applying a MS67 grade to another with multiple scratches. We both know that the TPG have used discretion in deciding. I can produce examples of contradictory grading, as I know you can, and have.

You've just affirmed one of my arguments, with your like of post #118 that states same as above.

There's a reason we have courts to settle matters of contradiction and damages, as I've cited in this thread.

We haven't disagreement, just of what TPG contradictions selections to use! About Uncirculated = Circulated, Mint State = Mint Struck/Delivered from the Mint State, etc.. You are correct about disagreement, as I must present one of most likely legal outcome, where you have a contradictory choice shown by TPG. I thank you for the opportunity to persuade, but I must relent to write a legal argument for presentation to a voting audience in 2 days.

JMHO

 

How about just accurate grading per ANA standards? All grading is subjective to a degree and "experts" vary in their opinions on a regular basis, but there is no reason that grading standards should deteriorate over time. If you want to have the grading companies differentiate for value in a given grade, use parameters for strike, luster, etc., as is similarly done for ancients.