If Caesar couldn't, then why should others?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by JayAg47, Aug 17, 2021.

  1. JayAg47

    JayAg47 Well-Known Member

    I mean if Caesar crossed the line of minting coins with his own bust, rather than just sticking with gods and other imagery, thus signifying a 'king-like' status that lead to his assassination, then how come others like Pompey, and even Brutus himself issued coins with their own busts?!
    Isn't that a bit hypocritical?
    The following coins are of course not mine,
    Caesar
    CNG-RRC-480-6.jpg
    Pompey Magnus
    image00475.jpg
    Brutus
    caesarcoin3.jpg
     
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  3. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    After collecting these coins for a while, I have reacted the conclusion that they were political pieces, just like the modern buttons and tokens. The leader issued pictures of himself and his family to get his brand before the public. If you could read the coins, you were treated to his bragging points like “high priest of the Roman religion,” “father of his country,” and “representative of the people,” all abbreviated in Latin, of course.

    Some of them, like Caracalla, made an effort to destroy images of the brother he murdered, Geta, to remove him from public notice.
     
  4. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    Once a taboo is broken, it becomes much easier for others to break it.

    The portrait coin itself wasn't the reason Caesar was assassinated, it just added additional gas to the flames.

    I'm not familiar with the Pompey Magnus coin. Was that minted by him or one of his descendants?

    In the case of the Brutus coin, he was trying to promote himself as the savior of the Republic. (So was Mark Anthony.) Since Caesar had already annulled the customary proscription against lifetime portraits, why not remind the troops who the boss is now?

    Egos.
     
  5. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Sextus Pompey, his son, minted the Pompey portrait denarius in the OP. This would have been a posthumous portrait, so would be in keeping with Roman Republican moneyers using ancestors' depictions on their coins:

    Sextus Pompey - Den Neptune Dec 2019 (0a).jpg
    Sextus Pompey Denarius
    (42-40 B.C.)
    Sicilian Mint

    MAG•PIVS•IMP•ITER• , head of Pompey Magnus r. between lituus and capis / Neptune left, holding aplustre, foot on prow, with Anapias & Amphinomus, parents on shoulders, [PRÆF] above, CLAS•ET•O[RÆ] / [M]ARIT•E[X• S•C•]
    (3.47 grams / 16 mm)
    eBay Dec. 2019
    Attribution Notes:
    Crawford 511/3a; Pompeia 27; Sydenham 1344; BMCRR (Sicily) 7; RSC 17 (Pompey the Great);
    Sear CRI 334.
     
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  6. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I will never get a true JC, but I'm content with this one.

    Augustus RPC I 1554.JPG
     
  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    COIN PORTRAIT NO-NO's for the ROMAN REPUBLIC

    SCIPIO
    upload_2021-8-17_9-37-13.png
    This is believed to be a portrait of Scipio in his younger years after he captured Carthago Nova. This is BEFORE he was Africanus, an honor bestowed AFTER he defeated Hannibal at the Battle of Zama in 202 BCE. If this is a true portrait, this would be the first living Roman on a coin. It was minted far from Rome and minted in bronze so that it would not truly violate Roman custom (the Senate controls the silver coins...)

    Carthago Nova
    SCIPIO
    Roman Occupation
    209-206 BCE
    Sear Vol2 6575 R


    POMPEY (Minted by son Sextus, so really not a no-no)
    upload_2021-8-17_9-39-59.png
    Roman Imperiatorial
    Pompey
    42-38 BCE
    AE As
    Janus (Pompey facing right)
    Prow Magnus
    Sear 1394 Craw 479-1


    CAESAR

    upload_2021-8-17_9-43-15.png
    Roman Imperiatorial
    Julius Caesar Lifetime
    P Sepullius Macer
    AR Denarius, 1st 2 weeks-Mar 44 BCE, 19 mm, 4.03g.
    Obv: CAESAR – DICT PERPETVO Veiled and wreathed head of Caesar R.
    Rev: P·SEPVLLIVS – MACER Venus standing l., holding Victory and sceptre resting on star.
    Ref: Syd 1074a Sear Imperators 107e Crawford 480-14 Rare

    - minted in last two weeks of his reign, or two weeks before he was assassinated.
    - veiled, as he held the office of Pontifex Maximus for several years, and that office was very important to him personally.
    - wreathed... just short of being king... big no-no
    - DICT PERPETVO - yeah, he was a king... so Roman Republic inherently and culturally hated kings.
    - fairly difficult to capture with the star on reverse


    BRUTUS (knock-off)

    [​IMG]
    Brutus
    EID MAR
    Slavei
     
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  8. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..Sextus issued those :)( i lQQk at'em most everyday:watching:)
     
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  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    good portrait there! :)
     
  10. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    facebook_1628388686216_6829957180152196447_81876332044703(1).jpg
    Here he is with a cut, I mean counter mark, to the throat:
    IMG_0296(1).PNG
    Augustus with Divus Julius Caesar
    (27 BC-14 AD) MACEDON. Thessalonica. Obv: ΘEOΣ.
    Wreathed head of Julius Caesar right; uncertain c/m on neck.
    Rev: ΘEΣΣAΛONIKEΩN.
    Bare head of Augustus right; Δ below. RPC I 1554.
    Fine. 12.3 g.21 mm.
    Former: Numismatik Naumann

    IMG_2674(1).PNG
     
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  11. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    ROMAN REPUBLIC SUPER-TABOO...

    Fulvia: First Living Woman on a Roman Coin... AND she is depicted as VICTORY

    A very powerful and strong Woman in Ancient History, especially in a male-centric Roman Republic.
    [​IMG]
    Roman Republic (disintegrating)
    Fulvia

    Late summer-autumn 43 BCE
    AR Quinarius (13mm, 1.67 g, 5h).
    Lugdunum (Lyon) mint.
    Obv: Winged bust of Victory right, with the likeness of Fulvia /
    Rev: Lion walking right; DVNI (retrograde and inverted) above, LVGV in exergue; A to left, X [L] to right (= 40, Antony’s age at time of issue).
    Crawford 489/5; Lyon 2; King 75; CRI 122; Sydenham 1160; Fulvia 4.
    Comments: VF, lightly toned, light porosity.
    Ex: CNG

    Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulvia
    The siege at Perusia lasted two months before Octavian starved Lucius into surrender in February 40 BC. After Lucius' surrender, Fulvia fled to Greece with her children. Appian writes that she met Antony in Athens, and he was upset with her involvement in the war. Antony then sailed back to Rome to deal with Octavian, and Fulvia died of an unknown illness in exile in Sicyon, near Corinth, Achaea.[46] After her death, Antony and Octavian used it as an opportunity to blame their quarrelling on her. According to Plutarch, "there was even more opportunity for a reconciliation with Caesar. For when Antony reached Italy, and Caesar manifestly intended to make no charges against him, and Antony himself was ready to put upon Fulvia the blame for whatever was charged against himself."[46] After Fulvia's death, Antony married Octavian's sister, Octavia Minor, to publicly demonstrate his reconciliation with Octavian. Antony never regained his position and influence in Italy.[47]

    Once Antony and Octavia were married, she took in and reared all of Fulvia's children. The fate of Fulvia's daughter, Clodia Pulchra, after her divorce from Octavian is unknown. Her son Marcus Antonius Antyllus was executed by Octavian in Alexandria, Egypt in 30 BC. Her youngest child, Iullus Antonius, was spared by Octavian and raised from 40 BC by Octavia Minor. Iullus married Octavia's daughter and Octavian's niece Claudia Marcella Major and they had a son Lucius Antonius and possibly a daughter Iulla Antonia.

    Yeah, I have posted this one before...
     
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  12. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Being an Imperator was such a cut-throat business...
     
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  13. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..there were always worried underwriters at Empire Life Insurance Co. :p
     
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  14. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I have no idea why Brutus decided to mint coins in his own image (although, they are all rare compared to the ones with only his name).

    Pompey didn't mint coins with his image, save for *possibly* this one from Soloi-Pompeopolis (opinions are divided whether this is a lifetime or posthumous portrait, possibly as late as the Flavian era)
    Pompey the great AE soloi-pompeiopolis .jpg

    Caesar's portrait coins made him enemies in the Senate, but the people loved it and wanted him to be in charge of everything forever. Once Brutus followed suit it opened the flood gate - Octavian, Antony, Lepidus, and then that Regulus guy who nobody seems to know what he did to deserve to be on coinage!

    Also, FWIW, I believe that the trend of living rulers on coinage actually started in the provinces which had been kingdoms within living memory - For someone alive during Caesar's time, the final years of the Seleucid and Mithradaic kingdoms would have been only 20-30 years prior.
     
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  15. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    The Pompey was minted after his death, by his son, Sextus Pompey. Edited to add: Sorry; I didn't see that others already pointed this out. I didn't intend to pile on!
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
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  16. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Isn't there a theory that there were coins issued during the lifetimes of Marius and/or Sulla with reverse figures (admittedly, not portraits) intended to represent them?
     
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  17. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    Denarius of Julius Caesar January-February 44 BC Rome Obv. Head of Julius Caesar right laureate. Rv. Venus standing left Crawfrd 480/4 CRI 102 4.34 mm 18 mm Photo by W. Hansen 480-b.jpg The question posed by @JayAg47 is a thought provoking one. However before trying to answer that question directly I will attempt to illustrate my point with an event that was much more recent. Back in July 1980 I joined Canada Post as a letter carrier. At the time the union that represented me was LCUC. In the summer of 1981 our sister union CUPW went on strike. The principle bone of contention was paid maternity leave for women. I was told at the time that our then Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau (Liberal Party) had signed an international agreement that supported this initiative. I cannot verify this. The negative press that we got was quite overwhelming even from the CBC and the strike lasted for 42 very acrimonious days. We got very little support. The funny thing was that after CUPW won this fight paid maternity leave for women spread very rapidly and with very little fuss. Now it is taken for granted. So what is my point? Once something that is controversial is done; if it is seen as causing no major disaster it will become readily acceptable and even thought to be the normal state of affairs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
  18. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..yup....i just bought one o does...Sulla's name of bottom reverse and (according to some) him riding in the triumphal chariot too...:) IMG_0574.JPG IMG_0575.JPG L. M.Torquatus & L Cornelius Sulla, 82BC, 16mm, 3.57gms
     
  19. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    The minting of coins with his portrait was not the reason that lead to his assassination. It certainly was a reflection of his self-glorification, which the Nobiles and the Senate could not accept and who only considered the Republican freedom as their exclusive right to power and wealth.

    In 48 BC Caesar made several decisions regarding the public finances (Cassius Dio, XLI, 39, 1). The treasury he had taken over when he first entered Rome was almost used up for war expenditures. Now Caesar, be it as Pontifex Maximus, Imperator or Elected Consul, seized all money, precious metals, and even temple offerings that were kept in the temples, had them melted, and minted his first Aurei with Pietas on the obverse, as well as denarii (which were put in circulation). Behind this gesture of devoutness, one can be tempted to see the cold cynicism of the statesman, who seized dedicated temple offerings to pay his forces and at the same time use the personification of piety on those coins.
    Minting was brought indirectly under his control, because he was the one who appointed the Tres Viri Monetales, which he had increased to four members. In the minting workshops he used only slaves from his household who had his trust. Several of his coins now have his bust, up to then a royal prerogative. He put into circulation Aurei, that until now were minted in few quantities under Sulla and Pompeius.

    Under the Republic there never had been struck coins with a portrait of a living person, only of a deceased. The mint masters used it for glorification and honoring of their ancestors, but usually it was the head of Roma or of a god.
    When Caesar now uses his portrait, it is a self-aggrandizement that reminds of Hellenistic and most of all of Alexander the Great coinage. However, it is to be noted that on none of his portraits he is shown with a royal diadem or headdress, not even on the coinage from the East that was issued with his portrait (BMC Nicea 8) in 48 and 47 BC. The dictator is shown with a wreath as used by a Triumphator.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
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  20. FrizzyAntoine

    FrizzyAntoine Well-Known Member

    Yes indeed, as Ominus1 already pointed out there is an extensive issue with sulla portrayed riding a triumphal quadriga, however as usual the man was late to the party on account of a certain Gaius Marius. Among the extensive roma/quadriaga denarii types issued near the close of the 2nd century BC this is perhaps the only one that does not overtly depict a diety on the reverse. Crawford, among others, speculates that it instead shows Marius during his triumph of 101 BC, with his son (roughly 7 at the time) riding on horseback.

    326.1     C. Fundanius Marius Triumphator Denarius (101 BC).jpg
    C. Fundanius Denarius, Crawford 326/1
     
  21. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I understand these are supposed to be celebrating Marius' Victories:

    [​IMG]
    RR Anon AR Quinarius 81 BC Apollo MARIUS GAUL Victory S 305 Cr 373-1


    [​IMG]
    RR Anon AR Quin 81 BC Apol MARIUS GAUL Vict var 2 i S 305 Cr 373-1b


    [​IMG]
    RR Lucilius Rufus 101 BCE Ar Den Roma Biga Marius Victories S 202 Cr 324-1


    [​IMG]
    RR Fundanius AR Quinarius 101 BCE Marius triumph over Celts Jupiter E control Victory captive carnyx Q Sear 205 Craw 326-2
     
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