Never again buying raw ancients from online auctions.

Right. “Condition when stopped circulating” might have been better. The point is that one goes beyond the original artist’s design when tooling.

 

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Interesting discussion. In the case of the crusty Faustina I posted, removing all the crud that has adhered to the original surface, and stopping at the original coin surface would not be tooling or smoothing, since you are stopping at the original surface. Right?

This is theoretical, of course - it would take an electron microscope to accomplish this kind of work, probably.

As for the OP, I think they look nice. A small amount of tooling/smoothing does not bother me, but the coins should be slabbable if they are sold by a reputable auction house without describing them as worked over. Most of the high grade bronzes I see on acsearch, eBay, etc. look a little suspect to me. But they are so far out of my price range I don't have to worry about tooling.

Here is a pretty one - I thought so anyway - but outrageously tooled and smoothed - ruined, and I don't like that, but I guess if you're going to tool something, you might as well not be sneaky about it. The tooler had a steady hand, but I think he went a little overboard on the pearls - it looks like she has a cobra on her head!

I think this was from an eBay auction, and if I remember right, the bidding got pretty aggressive:

 

That wouldn't fool anyone. Here's my highest grade Faustina I bronze for comparison:

 

My highest grade Faustina I bronze is this one.

I've always thought it might be altered, enhanced, or otherwise bamboozled, but I think it might just be really nice.

 

Tell the auction house the Claudius came back from NGC as "TOOLED". Ask them if you may return it.

I've seen NGC-encapsulated coins with "lt. smoothing" noted. Your purchases were described as "some smoothing", "light smoothing", and "smoothing". If you plan to buy coins described this way, and get them into holders, you will need to spend a lot of time inspecting MANY coins in person with a loupe, trying to figure out if the coin is "brushed", or "lt. smoothed", or "TOOLED". It won't be possible to do that from photos.

 

I referenced this thread from 2 years ago as part of a different discussion in another thread, I didn't intend to have it bumped back to the top of the list. I certainly don't mind continuing the discussion, but I just wanted to point out that this material is dated.

As I mentioned previously in this thread, I do not mind some smoothing in the fields of my coins. It doesn't detract from the content or originality of the coin in my opinion (no surface on ancient coins is "original"), and it makes them more aesthetically pleasing, so I feel that the "issues" tradeoff is worthwhile. What we call "Smoothing" in the fields can be called "Tooling" by a 3rd party like NGC, so I guess the descriptions can kinda be honest and not be honest at the same time .

I did contact CNG and Frank Robinson about any potential resolutions. I don't remember exactly how the conversations went (I could probably dig up some emails), but the general message from both was:

"We have no obligation to rectify our agreed upon, previous sales based on the opinions of a 3rd party given after the fact."

That's pretty much what I was expecting, and I didn't really push the issue much beyond initial contact.

 

Here's mine for comparison:

Diva Faustina Sr., wife of Antoninus Pius. Died 141 AD. Æ Sestertius. (31mm; 27.02 gm; 10h).Struck under Pius, after 146 AD. Obv: Draped bust right. Rev: Aeternitas standing left, holding phoenix on globe and raising hem of skirt. RIC III 1105 (Pius); BMCRE 1490 (Pius); Cohen 12

 

I'm surprised to hear that CNG responded that way.

 

Like I said, I don't remember exactly how the conversations went, so I may be putting words in their mouth to some extent.

But what I know for sure is that I contacted them, I still have the coins, and the situation wasn't rectified. So whatever their explanation was, it didn't go my way

 

Thanks for sharing this!

I remember a few people on this forum getting annoyed and even angry with me (even permanently ignoring me) when I stated that I don’t buy raw coins from auction houses because they might be fake/damaged/tooled etc.,

Several people tried to make me feel dumb and said that I had no idea what I was talking about and that it never happens with legitimate auction houses and that even if it did by accident I would be refunded.

But as your experience has shown you never really know what you’re getting when it comes to buying raw coins.

Im sorry this happened to you and I hope you are able to get some sort of refund or something but at the same time I feel vindicated that my instinct was right and that I’ve been doing the right thing buying only NGC slabbed coins at auction.

 

I guess then that NGC has never made a mistake and slabbed a fake coin, missed some tooling, or slabbed a fourree etc? NGC is just another layer on top of the assessment by the person or business you're buying your coins from. "You never know what you're getting" applies as much to NGC as it would to an auction house. That is to say they're telling you what you're getting and you either agree with them or you don't.

As what I'm sure was said by others when they told you legitimate and reputable auction houses offer protection and recourse against fakes or tooled coins: no one is infallible, no method is perfect, and mistakes will slip through.

It comes down to how comfortable someone is in their own judgement and the judgement of those they buy from. If you are not confident when it comes to being able to identify a fake or tooled coin, then I can understand why you may want to pay a company to do this assessment for you.

Not to say that my, or anyone else's, assessment is on par with NGC, but it's a matter of balancing the risk. For a particularly expensive coin that is known to have convincing fakes on the market, I might seek out NGC or another expert but for other coins be content with the expertise of the dealer and my own assessment. Though in the former scenario, I'd still refuse the slab and just take their assessment!

 

I'm glad that you found my post useful in providing some support, vindication, etc. It is unfortunate that you were treated the way that you described, but, you should never let that kind of thing bother you if your decisions are logical, rational, and address a problem that is important to you without causing any harm to others. I guess that's why I'm such a fan of Marcus Aurelius, as I tend to live by these Stoic types of moral philosophies .

Whenever evaluating an argument, I tend to start by trying to understand the psychology involved, and from that perspective, I empathize with both sides of the slab debate in these forums. For seasoned ancients collectors, I can see how a slabbing trend would represent a threatening, fundamental change to the hobby that they know and love.

-Slabbing prevents physical interaction with the coin, which is an extremely important part of the experience for many people.

-Slabbing focuses the fate of each coin on the opinions of a few specific experts that are as fallible as anyone else.

- And the one that probably scares people more than anything else, slabbing threatens to turn the hobby into a commodities market, which drives up prices and has the tendency to circumnavigate appreciation of the coins for what they actually are.

- And the universal one, slabbing represents change, and human beings are generally resistant to change.

So, these (among others I'm sure) are the reasons why people are motivated to push back against a slabbing trend.... And I get it! However, another general tendency that occurs with human beings, and one that seems to have affected you in a negative way, is a propensity for becoming overly tribalistic with respect to petty things. Just look at the current state of our politics, it's become one group of stupid, crazy people against another group of stupid, crazy people!

Anyway, this is an ancient coins forum, raw coins are ancient coins and slabbed coins are ancient coins. Opinions and debates on the preferences should be a fun part of the discussions, but when somebody resorts to anger or insults, then they are the one in the wrong......not you.

The behavior of others is outside of your control, and as Marcus Aurelius said,

"The more we value things outside our control, the less control we have."

Or, in modern parlance, "You do You!"

 

You are 100% right about everything you said.

But in my opinion NGC at least acts as a sort of uninterested party.

Auction houses know they have money at stake and I think that might cause their experts to subconsciously give the coin the benefit of the doubt.

Whereas NGC gets money either way so they have no incentive to go either way with a coin.