Security Engravers Group Presentation Poll

Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by RickieB, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    Hello Everyone:

    As we wind down with the 2009 Presentations, I wanted to get some feedback in a poll of what you liked and what ideas you have to make our group a little better for 2010.


    So here we go:

    I did not add a traditional poll to this as the suggestions may be a bit long..
    So please post what your ideas are that would benifit the gropu and the Presentations if any.

    And for those of you who read them please add your input, we are interested in what you think as well.


    RickieB
     
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  3. De Orc

    De Orc Well-Known Member

    Um well now bit hard to do mate there is no poll LOL
     
  4. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    De Orc...

    Yep, I started a Poll but the questions were to long (some of them) so I clicked the back button and walla..it posted..LOL :D :D

    So I thought best to just let everyone answer in their own words.

    Thanks for your support friend.

    RickieB
     
  5. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    I'll jump in and see if I can add something relatively intelligent to the discussion...

    Firstly, I think the presentations this year were fantastic, especially given these were the very first ones, with no pre-existing templates or instructions to help folks out. They were all enjoyable reads, and covered a lot of topics. RickieB and Connor1 you've done a good job coordinating the effort, and I thank you for it. For me, research and deeper understanding of the artwork on banknotes is my motivation for collecting, and the Security Engraver's Group is generating the kind of content I enjoy.

    That said, what could be better? A couple thoughts, not intended to bash the group or point at anyone in particular:

    1) I'm not sure how we ended up focused on *engravers* specifically for the group. While the engraver of a particular banknote is obviously important, in my mind, the *artist* who drew the art that was then engraved is more important, in the scheme of things.

    2) I tried early on to have a discussion on "what is a vignette?", to gain an understanding of where the group was going. It wasn't well-participated, and I think most folks took the discussion just to be a clarification to me on the definition of the term. If I didn't make it clear back then, my apologies. I know how the term is used, I was wanting to find out whether the members of the group had some consensus on scoping that I wasn't aware of. Over the months, it feels like the group has minimized the phrase "vignette", because it is hard to define, and I think that's a good thing. For me, I would just as soon have the group be focused on *any* artwork on banknotes and securities, regardless of whether it can be captured in the box called a "vignette".

    I'm sure more would come to mind with a bit more thought, but that's it for starters. What would address both those thoughts is a "scope statement" for the group, that clarified these things to all members. I don't believe the scope should be "any writing you want to do about banknotes and securities", because that's a replication of this forum. It should be a different scope from the most general "paper money forum" discussions. But what is that scope, more specifically?

    Dave
     
  6. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    Dave:

    You raise a very valid point. After all the "vignettes" we all enjoy did originate from a drawing or photograph in the beginning.
    I have read many descriptions of vignettes that proclaim engraved by so and so from the original painting or from a photo taken by so and so.

    It would be a pleasure to have you involved within the group administration as a "fact historian" and develop and define along with us a guideline of understanding so that we may better inform our members and aid them in their interest's and work. At the same time this could aid in the development of new members as well as non members who read and learn from the presentations.

    What do you say Dave, will you join Connor1 and I and be a contributing administrator of the group?

    How about everyone else. do we need to structure an internal administration component for our group? Your thoughts are important to me so please speak up on this. Shall we have internal appointments that we all share and refine over the course of a year?
    I have to admit that "free range" is always a good thing for individuals and we should always keep that element into the Presentation, but a structure of clarification to better understand how the vignette originated would be a very useful component to the overall presentation.

    As it stands currently there is very little other than timeline and update organization that Connor and I do. We depend on you, the members to come thru on your part.

    What say you all?


    RickieB
     
  7. USS656

    USS656 Here to Learn Supporter

    Hi Rick,

    While I understand Dave's comments and really appreciate him stepping up to offer ideas/suggestions. I feel that we are only restricted by our own definitions of what we can do. As long as the subject is security engraving I say anything goes ~ obviously within the rules of the site. I wouldn't mind someone writing a piece on the specific art of engraving and I think we would all find it useful and informative.

    Someone engraved every aspect of a note and I don't think anyone is constrained to what they present on as it relates to the note.

    My library is very limited and it is hard enough finding enough information to keep it original. If anyone thinks they could tie even half of the vignettes/borders/numbers back to an artist I would be impressed and want to expand my library to include these sources if it is economically feasible.

    While I don't mind helping in ways that I can, I would not get carried away with too much structure until the group develops a little more. I don't want to scare people away or make them feel stifled. I don't mind helping a little with formatting completed presentations for the year end piece on an as needed basis. This isn't something I would want to do every week as I just don't think I have the bandwidth to meet that obligation.

    About the only thing that might be helpful is if the members that are posting can submit as early as possible who/what they are going to write about. I would hate to put a couple weeks of spare time into posting about someone that gets posted the week before mine.

    I hope others put some thought into your question and am open to all ideas.
     
  8. Art

    Art Numismatist?

    I'm in agreement with Darryl and especially on getting folks to identify their chosen project as early as possible to avoid duplicate efforts. That said, I'm off to identify mine.

    OK.. Vignette = Black Diamond from the United States Note $10 1901
     
  9. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    I'll go along with the group's decision, of course. If the group prefers to hold the scope to just engraving, I can deal with it. Personally I tend to find much more information about the artists available than of the engravers, but perhaps I'm in the minority.

    Dave
     
  10. USS656

    USS656 Here to Learn Supporter

    Dave,

    Again, I think that talking about the artist would be great for those that want to go there! Right now I only have one book which is the one for US security engravers by Hessler. He doesn't get into artist, so for me I do not even know where to start to find this type of information? I also think it should be up to the presenter what they want to present. That might be about the artist, the engraver, a specific piece, or the art of engraving. Again, I think this will be a learning process for us all as it relates to where to find the source data. I hope no one limits the scope of there work.

    I didn't do enough to document my sources in my presentation and maybe this would have been a good closing paragraph or appendix. I think we could all learn from that type of information as well.
     
  11. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper


    Thanks for the remarks guy's and Darryl, the offer to assist is one I very well may take you up on. I think we are off on a good start. As you can see I am publishing the ideas as a worksheet for us to resolve and debate.
    I think having each presenter with the own "free range" is a good idea.
    The only limits one should be subject to is the rules of the Forum.

    Thank you all, thus far. Keep the ideas coming, we are making progress!!


    Notes: Dec 26th, 2009
    Comments for consideration on Group Presentations:

    1. Defining not only the engraving aspect but the Artistic Aspect as well.

    2. Personal Limitations of each individual Presenter

    3. Identifying your project within a few days so it will not be duplicated.

    4. Defining/Refining the Name of the Group. (less restrictive in clarification)
     
  12. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    Perhaps we're just talking across terms. You said: "As long as the subject is security engraving I say anything goes", which I take to be *requiring* the topic to be about *engraving* as opposed to some other aspect of the creation of a security or banknote. What I'm saying is that engraving is but one aspect, and the one of more interest to me is the initial artwork that is eventually represented on the security. To try to be more clear, I'll post here the terms often used on banknotes:
    INV: in French, a inventé, the original artist
    DEL: a dessiné, producer of the definitive sketch of the design
    SC: a sculpté, engraver of the die (or other medium for printing)
    FEC: a fait, "he made it" - a broader term used when one person has the role of both INV and DEL

    What I'm suggesting is that "Security Engraver's Group" appears (by name, at least) to restrict itself to folks that do "SC" above, and exclude articles written about the people that do the other parts. I would not exclude any of them, and also specifically not state that the articles *must* include a discussion of the engraver for the same reason you state - the literature you have may not include information about the engraver, whereas you may have plenty of information about the original artist.

    I would simply suggest that we codify, as Rick is already incorporating in this thread, some of the suggestions for authors, and include a broadening of the scope as above. Rick, I'd be happy to help as well, in whatever capacity seems useful.

    Dave
     
  13. USS656

    USS656 Here to Learn Supporter

    Not at all what I meant. :) I mean that it could be any aspect including the subject that inspired the engraving or drawing. As long as it is tied back to the resulting security note/stamp or stock or even Security printing company, paper company or ink company it could be perfect for this group.

    I think we are using the term Security Engraving Group as a much more general term than the word would suggest. Your point is well taken and I understand better now why you had the questions you had in your original post!

    I have not seen any information for US notes in the way that you presented in your post. If there is a book/source that covers this type of information I would love to know more about it...

    This is just my opinion and I definitely do not speak for the group...
     
  14. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    Cool, glad to hear we're talking about the same thing :hail:

    Regarding the steps in banknote design that I mentioned, I fear I have to plead ignorance on the US notes - I assume that's what you're referring to regarding catalogs. I have many specialized catalogs of the French areas around the world, and that seems to be a universal notation with them, is quite often listed with the other printing details of banknotes, and is even incorporated in the final note in many cases. See the lower margin of this note from my presentation:

    [​IMG]

    Perhaps I've assumed too much here, I would have thought the specialized US catalogs had similar information? Maybe someone will help us out here...

    Dave
     
  15. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    edited

    RickieB
     
  16. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    Dave the cataloging for the US Notes list no such information that I am aware of. It is all done by Friedberg Numbering System.. Fr. 1256 for example.

    No mention of the creator or Artist in any case that I am aware of for US Notes. We have to go else where to discover such info. I find this interesting and should be considered as a topic for a Presentation if you do not mind doing so. Education is the best answer here for sure.

    RickieB
     
  17. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    Wow, you learn something new every day! That really surprises me, with all the interest and research on US notes. Do you suppose the artists are purposely kept secret for some reason? Some of the more famous president vignettes are of course taken from original oil paintings that are well-known, but that they don't have every note documented really surprises me.

    Dave
     
  18. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    Hi everyone,I feel we should all have the freedom to include or not include the artists as USS656 has suggested ,When we started out any Banknote,security/stock cert./Certificates of Completation in the Coast Guard,Army?navy/military/mpc's/amc/... etc were the choice of the presenter.Including the ink manifacturer or paper supplier are a good idea I never though of but agree should be the choice of the presenter.Making strict requirements as to rules we have to follow (imho) would restrict & even scare future members from joining.
    I also think it is a good idea to give a "subject" or general description of what you are going to present so the week before someone doesn't do the same Presentation subject as you have prepaired.
    The 2010 presentation date list has many openings still & thanks for the few who have stepped up to the plate and chosen 2 dates .
    Rickie and I are open to any new ideas so keep them coming in ,everyone feedback will only make the group more unified.That being said I am very happy that 2009 went as smoothly as it did & a shout out to Rickie for his time and effort (and the sticky) and doing most of the work in this project is definately in order.
    Please keep your ideas coming in and 2010 will be an even better year then 2009 was.
    Happy New Year to everyone.
     
  19. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    At last count, there were 24 members here, I am wondering why we only have a few responses? This is after all your group, your input is valuable and would be appreciated as well.

    I have started a listing of concerns and suggestions and hope to hear from all members. Perhaps I will send a Gruop PM to everyone to capture their attention, they may want to add their comments as well but may have not seen this Thread yet.

    So please, by all means lets keep the discussion and suggestions open.
    Thus far I see easy resolution to all topics opened so far...I just would like majority support in the process.

    Lets make 2010 a Great year for this, and by all means, let's attract new members as well.

    Kind regards,

    RickieB
     
  20. ikandiggit

    ikandiggit Currency Error Collector

    I agree that expanding the perimeter to allow artists/craftsmen other than just engravers that were involved in the design of banknotes would be beneficial. In my research, so far, I found that in several cases that the engraver was considered just an employee and not much information is available about his life unless he was involved in other areas such as stamp design or had collaborated with a famous artist who had been commissioned to design a note.
     
  21. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Here,s something we maybe able to incorporate, Just an idea, I dont know
    If it,s even possible, But is there some way to submit a sample presentation?
    I ask this because, I have had some problems posting images due to some
    User and computer error..LOL But seriously i think most people would find
    This to be good idea, Especially for fine tunning there presentation!!

     
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