Why does NGC only sometimes weigh coins?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Gam3rBlake, Jun 12, 2021.

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  1. usc96

    usc96 Junior Member

    Thanks for the clarification.

    My collection so far is all US Coinage, so I guess I am good there.

    That said, I have been tempted over the years to add a nice NGC graded silver Athena/Owl tetradrachm and a gold Alexander/Athena stater (neither a cheap coin), but with this new information that there is a chance that these could be Chinese recreations, I suspect my desire might be quelled somewhat.
     
    usc96, Jun 13, 2021
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  3. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    NGC is really good, though. They try to only certify genuine coins. If I were buying an expensive coin like that, I would go through a reputable dealer who *did* guarantee the authenticity, but I would also buy an NGC coin. Aren't two sets of experienced eyes better than one?
     
    physics-fan3.14, Jun 13, 2021
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That would probably get you close but I seriously doubt that slabs are made with a high degree of precision when it comes to weight. In other words I think you'd find that there is a quite a variance in the weights of slabs. And - you would also have to somehow take into account the weight and fineness tolerance ranges for various coins, which both also varied from time to time. And then there's the clipping issue to deal with.

    Bottom line, the only way to get an accurate weight is to weigh the coin before it is slabbed.
     
    GDJMSP, Jun 13, 2021
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  5. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Yup Ancients are the only coins they don't guarantee authenticity.

    Their exact words:

    "NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied. NGC Ancients will only holder coins it considers genuine at the time of submission, but it cannot guarantee the authenticity, genuineness, type, attribution or date of any coin it holders. Unlike modern coins, which often benefit from well-documented, scientific parameters for the verification of authenticity, there rarely is conclusive data for ancient coins, and generally there is no surviving documentation to verify production characteristics."

    Note: They DO guarantee the grade given for the Ancient coins they grade.

    "Therefore, with ancient coins NGC Ancients will only guarantee the grade. It is recommended that buyers purchase ancient coins from sellers who offer unconditional lifetime guaranties of authenticity, and who otherwise stand behind their sales."

    You can read more about it here: https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/guarantee.aspx
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
    Gam3rBlake, Jun 13, 2021
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Well if you think about it clipping doesn't affect anything.

    If a 4 gram coin is clipped and weighs 3.6 grams then the coin weighs 3.6 grams.
     
    Gam3rBlake, Jun 13, 2021
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  7. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    I just got myself an NGC graded owl tetradrachm last month. xD

    No regrets!

    At least NGC does their best which is certainly better than my best would be at determining fakes. They have experts in Ancients.

    I bet they are right in the vast majority (95%+) of cases when they are determining authenticity.?


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    07920A1B-BEE3-4395-A835-C4B726DFB798.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
    Gam3rBlake, Jun 13, 2021
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  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Actually it does -when you are trying to guestimate the weight of a coin in a slab - which is what was being discussed.

    If you're weighing a coin out of a slab, then no it doesn't matter for the weight is simply the weight.
     
    GDJMSP, Jun 14, 2021
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. harley bissell

    harley bissell Well-Known Member

    Weigh the slab with the marked weight of the coin and learn the weight of the slab and insert. Write that down. Weigh the slab you question. If the weights are different from what you wrote down use that number to find your answer.
     
    harley bissell, Jun 14, 2021
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    How does it matter?

    If I have a coin that was 3.9 grams when minted and then clipped down to 3.6 grams then the coin weighs 3.6 grams which is the answer I’m looking for.
     
    Gam3rBlake, Jun 14, 2021
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Blake, you need to go back to what I said in my first post -

    Look at what I made bold in the post above. That's what you're not taking into account. Let me give you an example.

    The specified weight for a Morgan dollar is 26.730 grams. BUT - the tolerance range for the weight of every Morgan dollar is 26.633 grams at the low end, and 26.827 grams at the high end. All by itself that's a weight difference of 2 tenths of a gram that coin could have weighed when it left the mint.

    Then if you add in the possible differences of the slab materials itself - which could easily be 3 tenths of a gram or maybe even more - then you have a possible weight difference of a half a gram. And that's without taking any clipping into account.

    So there's no way that you can use the weight of a slabbed coin to determine an accurate weight for the coin. Because you don't even know what the coin weighed when it left the mint, or the true weight of the slab. And if the coin was clipped, that merely complicates matters even more.

    As I said in my first post about this, weighing a slabbed coin might get you close - with close being defined as to within a half a gram or more - but that's about as close as you can get. And when it comes to coins, that's not close at all.
     
    GDJMSP, Jun 15, 2021
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  12. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    I get that, but it seems like you're thinking I want to know the weight of the coin when it was minted. In which case yes potential clipping would cause problems.

    But I am trying to determine the weight of the coin as it is. If it's clipped it's clipped. I just want to know how much it weighs even with being clipped.
     
    Gam3rBlake, Jun 15, 2021
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The only point I'm trying to get across to you is that you cannot determine what the coin weighs, with any degree of accuracy, when the coin is in a slab. And that goes for coins that have been clipped, and coins that have not been clipped.
     
    GDJMSP, Jun 16, 2021
    #32 + Quote Reply
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