So, if I haven't yet, I think its time I fess up and admit that I collect Chinese coins. These were all given to me by a friend over the summer, and I only just got around to scanning them. I've only done 17 of the 50 or so total. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=-2049 This is probably my favorite: Western Han Dynasty Wu Zhu type under Han Wudi, 115-113 BC Hartill 8.9; Thierry 3 Han Wudi campaigned heavily against the Xiongnu barbarians. In order to gain a fresh supply of horses for the empire (previously the barbarians themselves supplied them!), Wudi fought his way west to open trade with the desert oasis of Ferghana, noted for its horses. In the process he stretched the borders of China to the largest they would be before the Qing Dynasty. Can any of the other Chinese collectors here comment on the accuracy of Thierry's La Chronologie des Wu Zhu? It seems like it almost goes into too much detail.
Selling horses to the enemy? Probably not a wise idea! Pretty cool. I have a real hard time figuring out the Chinese coins, though I don't own any I have seen quite a few online.
Why be reluctant to admit that you collect Chinese coins? They are as interesting and historically important as Roman and other "ancients". I started collecting them as I couldn't afford Roman coins, and now have a much greater knowledge of Chinese history than before - we weren't taught ANYTHING about China in school (that was 50 years ago). My collection of some 900 coins gives me immense pleasure and satisfaction. Be like me - a proud Sinophile!
You've got a nice collection brewing. The only cash I have is a very common Ching dynasty that I got somewhere for 50¢ thinking it was a copy. Even though it's not a copy, I might be out 25¢ on that deal!
Unfortunately, I have not read Thierry's La Chronologie des Wu Zhu. But, even the most respected Chinese numismatists frequently do not agree with each other as to the classification of wu zhu coins which were cast in endless varieties for more than 700 years. If you have an interest, please feel welcome to view some of the unusual wu zhu varieties I have posted. Also, I provide some additional information regarding Emperor Wudi and his quest to obtain the famous "sweating blood" horses of the Ferghana at Ancient Chinese Horse Coins. As ls8driver mentioned, collecting Chinese coins (and charms I might add) can open up a whole new world to you if you are so inclined. Also, most old Chinese coins were cast in large quantities so the cost of entry into this field can be very modest. You already have a very nice start to a collection. Since most visitors to your "gallery" probably cannot read Chinese, and because most collectors identify Chinese coins by their inscription, you may want to consider adding to each entry the romanized version of the inscription. This can help avoid confusion. For example, you have two specimens of "China - Shen Zong 1068-1077" where the distinguishing feature appears to the "script" (seal vs regular) and which have dates that overlap (1068-1077 vs 1071-1077). The casual visitor, who cannot read the Chinese or understand the Hartill number, would not realize that the first coin was actually a xi ning yuan bao while the second was a xi ning zhong bao. The images are essentially the same size and so do not reveal that the "zong bao" is almost certainly larger and has a value equivalent to not one but ten cash coins. Also, I am not certain but I suspect that your "China - Tang Dynasty 'Kai Yuan' (732-907)" may actually be a kai yuan tong bao cast during the reign of Emperor Li Yu (961-978) of the Southern Tang Kingdom. Most "kai yuan" coins with a very broad rim are actually of this variety (Hartill 15.101) so you may want to double check just to be sure. One last observation. You have two specimens of "China - Shen Zong", one "1078-1085" and one "1068-1085". I believe the reign year for both should be yuan feng instead of yuan fen. Have fun collecting Chinese coins. I hope you find it as interesting and educational as I have. Gary
I would be reluctant to collect Chinese coins because not only is China the largest source of fakes in the world, but it is also my understanding that there are harsh laws against the exportation of genuine Chinese coins, but scarcely any laws against exporting fakes, which directly encourages forging whilst actively proscribing dealing in genuine specimens. As ancients are more difficult to authenticate than modern issues at the best of times, you would have to be a genuine bona-fide expert and not merely a reasonably informed amateur to distinguish a genuine coin from a fake. This state of affairs isn't helped by the fact that many genuine ancient chinese coins were cast, rather than struck. Basically, Ancient Chinese coins, whilst potentially interesting in their own way, are just too dodgy to have confidence in collecting, IMHO...
ls8 - I'm just facetious, I'm actually quite proud of my little collection. manymore - Thank you for looking closely at my coins! I really appreciate the bit of proofreading, especially since I'm just getting started. I put a good deal of thought into the style of the write ups and originally had the romanization included. But I decided that it was a bit repetitive. Also, I think that most Western collectors of these can't read the characters at all and end up attributing them by comparing images anyway. (heck, yuan tong and bao are some of the only characters I recognize!) Prestoninianus - Its the same with any coins: buy from trusted dealers. All of mine came from either OnlyLinda (the only place on ebay to buy these) and Frank Robinson (whose stock isn't the most high end). Plus, these are generally dirt cheap. If I get a fake, I'm out $2. Ohhhhh nooooo.
My thoughts exactly. I doubt many of these are fake, because so many are so cheap. P.S., Ardatirion, I know a dealer that sometimes sells these in bulk lots for about 50¢ each. Just drop me a PM if you want the dealer's name.
For me, the joy of collecting Chinese coins is that you can collect for a lifetime and still not pay more than $50 for a coin (although I have done so once or twice in 50 years). The common ones are so common that they are not faked (or if so are obviously so). Try and get a mixed lot from a respected dealer - I am sure they would be pleased to help. David
It's good to see some discussion on Chinese coins at last. I agree that there are fakes out ther in large numbers, but if you buy from good dealers (another to mention is Bob Reis - anythinganywhere.com) the risk is very low. Incidentally, all ancient Chinese coins were cast, not struck, up to the late 1870s. Hope eveyone has a great Christmas and New Year.
Is there a China coin book for dummies? I will look for dealers at the FUN show that might be knowledgeable & have some China coin inventory. I would hope they would take me under their wing and sell me some nice China type coins. I do not buy China coins on my own because I do not read & cannot identify fakes. Is there a China coin book for dummies?
For starters, try Jorgensen's "Old Coins of China" - you can get it from Bob Reis for around $3.00. You'll soon learn to recognise the important characters, and be able to quickly tell if a coin is Tang, Song, Ming or Qing. Other less common coins are more difficult. The great advantage of Jorgensen is that it's small enough to put in your pocket & take to shows, sales etc. Also Calgary Coins website has an extensive and invaluable guide to cast coins. It's worth downloading and printing. Above all, get a copy of David Hartill's "Cast Chinese Coins". (Also available from Bob Reis). This is the current standard work for identifying cash coins, alongside Ding Fubao & Schjoth.
Many replies ago, you asked a question that bothered me to the point that I slowed adding more coins. How accurate are the divisions of Wu Zhu? Various books differ or gloss over fine divisions in different ways. Later Chinese coins bear characters that place them in a period within a ruler's reign but the early stuff is separated into variations by dots, bars around the hole and letter shapes. For example, I found ID for the two coins below to Xuan Di (top - rounded bottom left and wide right character) and Zhao Di (bottom - squared bottom on the left character and extended 'tabs' on the right at top and bottom). Both share the bar above hole variation. Where I became unclear is why the attributor associates these characteristics with coins of that reign. Certainly Chinese history is extremely interesting and I enjoy having coins associated with some of the big names but I need to see more written on the process used to develop the chronology before I become a collector paying dollars for the dots. I also need to get a better feeling about how to separate Chinese cash from other imitative coins of neighboring lands. I'm happy to have the few (50 or so) I have but it is part of my general world collection rather than a specialty.
Exactly. These are pure fun to me. I only actually paid for two of the coins in that whole gallery - the spade and the ghost face. But I am expecting a package that I DID pay for soon.
I don't think much of David Jen's book "Chinese Cash" as it lists quite a few fakes, but he includes an interesting appendix on identifying coin varieties with an emphasis on Wu Zhu and Kai Yuan Tong Bao varieties. See pages 293-305. Some of his explanations make reference to archaeological discoveries which help in identifying particular variants.
The attributions are from Francois Thierry's La Chronologie de Wu Zhu. I can't read French much at all, so I can't attest to the accuracy of the work. But from what I could make out, the attributions to the time periods seem to be based primarily on finds in dated noble tombs. The differences in the coins are minute variations in the characters. For all who are interested, here's the article (without the all important plates, though) http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/hom...946?_Prescripts_Search_isPortletOuvrage=false
Great collection you have underway there my friend :bow: allways fancied trying Chinese coins but like most of us am to scared to get burnt with fakes so I would also like to thank you guy's for giving names of trusted dealers :thumb:
If you study such works as articles by Francois Thierry, or by Roger Doo, you will find that nowadays Wu Zhu can be dated by virtue of being founded in precisely dated tombs, or at least tombs of a certain era.
