Cleaning Coins --- Just when does it start to hurt?

I get people in the shop on a regular basis who are surprised when I say "well unfortunately all of these coins have been cleaned"... They then respond "Well I wanted you to be able to see them better"... I have that conversation a couple of times a month. In general people have pretty good common sense when they are non collectors... but from time to time I see thousand dollar coins cleaned or polished into $50 coins.

Some of the comments in this thread made me cringe.... steel wool??? I hope you folks are kidding... or working on uncleaned ancients or something... IMO if you ever get to the point of considering a harsh abrasive like steel wool... or a toothbrush.... the coins too far gone to mess with anyways.

I have to reiterate that unless you know what you are doing and understand the chemical reactions... and the results of being wrong and/or not doing it properly... you shouldn't mess with your coins.

 

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I would be interested in hearing your guess as to what percentiage of UNC white Morgan dollars have been dipped.

 

I also am still amazed to hear about all the wheaties and a few IHC's in circulation. I never see any, but I don't do the roll thing either.

I know some of the coins I had from childhood, were not cleaned. Or should I say most of them were not. Either that or the aging process took care of the "cleaned" effect.

 

I have to disagree with this statement.

"Any Morgan that is blast white at some point has been dipped. It's just that simple. They have been around too long for their surfaces to not have developed any visible oxide."

Roughly around 300 million morgans survived the Pittman Act of 1918. In the 60's when bags of a thousand that were hoarded were opened they did indeed hold many blast white, fresh form the mint look morgans. To say that after they left these bags none or even a short few were stored in a way to prevent toning is false.

Now how many dips can a morgan take before it begins to loose it's luster and cartwheel? I would say not many.

 

Cholera/thypoid?

Is it ok to at least remove transmittable diseases?

I admit soaking a tootsie roll, or something like it, until I was able pry this off the end.

Is this a good time to quite "cleaning"?

Anybody ever use an autoclave with good results?

 

The method is just oxidation...like any other toning. Gold is not completely inert and thus can oxidize. It happens slowly...but it does happen.

 

Hi GD,
I was born in 58 and so wasn't old enough to enjoy the fun of the 60's. But I will take what people like David Bowers said to be true.

From his silver dollar book-

" Morgan silver dollars struck for circulation and placed in bags of a 1,000 coins each, and stored, when opened years later, such as in the 1960's indeed yielded pristine, brilliant, frosty pieces full original brightness and luster, including on the edges"

So what kind of special care did the mint take in storing these coins for better than the 40 years from the 60's till now? They were thrown in sulphur laden canvas bags and dumped in dank basements yet ones in the middle of the bag remained white. And so my point is that even accidentally there would still be many blast white morgans that haven't been dipped.

 

Right on Dio... That is all I was saying... Given enough coins produced there will always be best and worst examples... And the best examples will be white...

And I indeed go right on believing what I originally said... Lot's of coins get cleaned... Improper cleaning is bad, proper cleaning is unnecessary at best... I simply don't agree with the 80% number being thrown out there and then all the strong statement to indicate your argument is without flaw... Let us debate, if you please... By the way, if by your statistics only 80% of the blast white coins we have seen are dipped or cleaned, they by what method, what mechanism, what miracle of modern science accounts for the other 20% that are not toned... Where did those guys get the sci-fi airtight vacuum containers at the turn of the century that kept their coins so pristine... If you are going to say 80, you might as well go with 100... If you are going to allow that 20% manage to keep their luster through some extroardinary set of circumstances, then you have to allow that the percentage could be higher, and not be so inclined to attribute every pristine finish to a good cleaning...

And on the newness of cleaning coins, you are still talking as if collectors are the only ones who have ever desired to keep a coin looking it's best... Grandparent's have been handing down coins to their grandkids for centuries, and certainly some of those were people who might have backgrounds in any number of different trades that would give them insight into the need or desirability of protecting heirloom quality coins... Collectors as you see them have changed quite a bit through the years, but humans have liked shiny little baubles for a far cry longer than there have been forums on the internet to discuss them... Some people protected them well, some people didn't... Some people cleaned them, some people didn't... There are examples from all over the spectrum... and before I can accept 80%, I would need to see some actual studies to that effect, not just one person with an irrefutable, indisputable, fact-laden OPINION...

 

Out of the Autoclave

Just pulled out of the autoclave.

I Think it's safer now, if not better.

Well, maybe there is something still wrong with it. What could it be?

 

Of course my posts had to do with the comment that all blast white morgans were dipped.

Here's what Bowers has to say about other coins that weren't hoarded away.

"No such counterparts of coins with full original brightness exist amoung Barber or Liberty Seated dimes, quarters and half dollars of the morgan era, as these were never part of hoards. Any fully brilliant Liberty Seated or Barber coin has been dipped or treated sometime in its career."

 

Gold oxidation chemistry

 

blast white

I may be wrong, but the two biggest causes of toning are oxygen and sulfur. Sulfur is especially nasty on silver. While an extremely thin sulfur coating can cause nice toning (I have a gold toned seated lib quarter that is a result of sulfur), continued exposure to a sulfur bearing environment can really darken a coin (another example is am AU-58 1877 Trade dollar I have that looks solid grey)

The only way really old coins can be kept from toning is to hermetically seal them, preferably with desiccant or copper powder sealed inside. The ideal way would be to place them in either a vacuum or inert gas (neon would be best, but helium or argon would work).
I can't remember where I heard this, but supposedly one of the class manufacturers early in the 19th century placed some silver coins inside a glass tube and sealed (fired?) it shut. Supposedly the coins are still brilliantly reflective and look like something you'd see in a brand new mint set.

Merry Christmas to all of you-an amazing collection of avid and helpful collectors :hail:
Bob

 

A well designed coin, should be lustrous. The metal has bonded in geometric formations. Therefore when you spin a uncirculated morgan you'll see the cartwheels. Magnify it and you will see these peak and ridge formations.

When you soak a coin in acid or abraid it, you are only removing the corrosion, but you are also degrading the geometric formation, you flatten it. Cleaning will never improve or restore luster. It may look shiny, because you removed corrosion and dirt. But you've changed the surface.

 

In relation to gold toning. The color of gold is determined by relativistic effects. Metals such as silver absorb and reflect photons of color energy due to an "electron sea" on their surface. Gold would also be a silver color except for this relativistic effect. Gold absorbs a "blue" energy photon and reflects the "redder" energy photon as an internal electron moves from the 5d to 6s orbit. Gold atom shifts the frequency enough to put the photon in the visible color range while a silver atom does not. This color of gold can vary as any surrounding atoms of non-gold alters their composition through oxidation. Gold itself does NOT form a stable oxide below thousands of atmospheres of pressure oxygen, so any color change of gold occurs because of the internal energy relationships of the atomic shells of the atom.

There are quantum aspects as to velocity of electrons in more electropositive nuclei such as gold ( color ) compared to silver ( basically colorless), but the better physicists can probably work through that. Copper also has a color due to similar reasons, but it can readily oxidize, producing surface color changes.

So I am not sure if "Toning" is the proper word to use for the color change in gold.

Jim

 

Doug, I did not deny that there could be a color difference/change in gold, just that it is a change that is not due to a "chemical reaction" of gold with something like a sulfur or oxygen component, that is unlikely to reverse itself spontaneously. Gold doesn't combine with surrounding non-gold atoms under earth surface conditions, but it can be "affected" by surrounding molecules to change it's color as long as those surrounding molecules are there in that state. It is similar to Alexandrite, a gemstone that is naturally green in high energy daylight and red in low energy artificial light. The color depends on the photons energy ( color) re emitted as electrons change positions within atoms of the crystal. The crystal change wouldn't be described as toning.

Theoretically, gold is only that yellow color on the surface where light can reach. Underneath it would have no color, as photons could not be reacted. We don't care since we can only see the surface.

I don't know what word might be used instead of "toning" for gold. That is why I wrote the sentence, not to be a smart***. Maybe "toning" is a good enough word. I just wanted to say that the color change that can occur with gold is not the same as the color change that occurs with chemical reactions such as sulfur, or oxygen, where bonds are made ( such as with copper or silver, etc.).


Jim

 

Shell Game~

I just want to be sure I don't miss out on the end of this Shell Game.

Much better than FeeBray Contempts posts towards non~fooled types, so please carry on.

BUT~Using the OPz "Coins that have been There & Done that~and We ain't done with you yet" mission :goof:

I'm thinking, "Cleaning (Changing~preserving~altering) Hurt What?"

Current Value?
Desirability~History~Mystery~I appeal.