Cleaning Coins --- Just when does it start to hurt?

warm soapy warter. let it soak if it dont come off leave it, because youll just hurt thie value old and dirty is sometimes good, even though you just want to shine the crap out of it.

 

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I agree with Dutch on this one, it's very common knowledge

I agree with Dutch on this one, it's common knowledge with more seasoned dealers and some collectors. I have mentioned this before (and was kind of jump on then) and no, I do not have facts other than experience to back it up but think for a moment.

Plus the issue, for my input in this thread sake is concerning high AU to MS, mostly Morgans, Peace and higher end Barbers, Seated, Walkers, dollars, halves, and quarters.

Silver tarnishes quickly - just the increase from .900 to .925 has a dramatic effect. .925 tarnishes twice as fast as .900, so we know it does turn fast.
A properly done dip on a nice mint state coin does not hurt the surfaces at all.
Cleaning of coins was for many decades the preferred, acceptable normal treatment, everyone did it and expected it done.
It is not logical (if you really think about it) to think that big silver coins from 75 to 125 years old would remain so blast white today. Just put proof silver state quarters in a Dansco album and then look at them again in six months time.
There was no air conditioning during the first 35 to 100 (or more) years of these coins existance, nor was there practicably any thought to air tight or humid free evvironments.
These coins (the dollars) were kept in sulfer laden cloth bags in humid dark often damp vaults for decades.

While many are in denial, with the issues mentioned above how is it we have 10's of thousands blast white coins today - it's just don't add up or is it logical that the common (or uncommon) MS-64 White Morgan you have in your hand was not at some point cleaned in some way at some time.

 

A friend of my grandfathers worked on the floor of a Boeing plant and he used a commercial buffer to clean up the coin he was giving to my grandfather as a gift. Although I never got to see the coin, I hear it "shined like a diamond in a pig's edited."

 

Cleaning: Uncirculated vs Circulated

I would still like to hear some more especially regarding circulated copper and bronze etc. I've got a pretty fair collection of Canadian Pre-Confederation tokens. Some just look dull. As to uncirculated coins I would be afraid to attempt cleaning one of them because there is so much more which can be damaged.

So far it seems like soaking in hot water is the only safe method of cleaning even circulated coins that probably everybody will agree with. That is if the coin is allowed to air dry using the heat from the hot water. Yet we have respected members suggesting that it is 40% or 80% of coins which have been cleaned. Some dealers even had huge tanks filled with chemicals to clean multiple coins. So it is acknowledged as a common practice. Just how common is what the argument seems to be about.

GDJMSP or someone else: Can you give a more complete explanation of why soap with complete hot water rinsing action is harmful. What is the potential damage which can come from olive oil to copper? Compounds which are acidic (vinegar, lemon juice) or abrasive (Baking Soda) are obvious corrosive problems. Too Hot to handle for me.

 

Plase note with all the varieties of items made to day you should specify the type of brand most likely to be used for that pad. Brillo no longer has the monopoly on that product.

 

I think most people that have been doing this for several years will agree the majority of older raw coins have been cleaned in some way over the years. This is not so bad if the individual who did it knew what they were doing. It is also not so bad if a potential purchaser is aware of what they are looking at.

 

Does that include pure gold and platinum? Alloyed gold has copper and/or silver which can react with air, but I thought gold itself was inert?

Olive oil is much less acidic than vinegar or lemon juice: compare the tastes.

 

I like to use ms-70 coin cleaner.

 

I would disagree with this statement. From my experience (and I haven't done a statistical analysis)...a large portion of the silver coins I run into are blast white (mainly dealing with Morgan Dollars here). Any Morgan that is blast white at some point has been dipped. It's just that simple. They have been around too long for their surfaces to not have developed any visible oxide.

 

I lighty use steel wool from time to time

 

I completely disagree with this statement. Dipping removes the outer layer of the coin, it takes metal off the coin. Thus, it does hurt the surface of the coin. Now, if it is done properly it doesn't hurt the value of the coin (sometimes it even increases the value) but the surface is altered...and thus the surface of the coin is "hurt."

 

Yes, I've read most collectors use the new titanium pads. They are very effective on very old gold coins .

 

What does toned 24K gold look like? What is the chemical mechanism behind it?

 

Just a couple observations... I have seen some very dogmatic views in this particular thread... Guess that is what happens when an issue strikes close to home... One of the above posts, however is worded in such a way that it is bound to draw disagreement... One statement made is that "copper is the most reactive of all the coinage metals"... Use of a superlative like that is not wise generally speaking... Copper is a fairly reactive metal, but is less reactive than several others that are used in coinage... Some like molybdenum, used less commonly, and others like manganese used far more so, in this country and others... "virtually anything causes it to tone almost immediately"... Same problem here... There are many chemicals that would cause many of the coins we see to tone more rapidly than natural, but to say 'virtually anything' would make it tone 'almost immediately' seems not to take into account the number of different substances and methods that this whole thread is discussing... There are many ways to REMOVE the toning of a coin, or SLOW it's future toning... Then we read that "all coins and no exceptions begin to tone from the instant they are minted", while very nearly true on a molecular level, it's a little misleading... Very few coins would show sufficient toning in, say, a week, or a month that even the most adept expert would call it a toned coin... So all we really are talking about is someone taking the time necessary to find a way to protect a coin to a reasonable degree within a fairly reasonable time from the time it leaves the mint... But that is covered next when we are told that collectors had NO MEANS to protect coins... Again, a superlative statement that is not entirely true... Many people in the last couple hundred years were not 'collectors', and simply put coins in jars, many coins were lost to couches, and the earth, and jars buried IN couches, or IN the earth... Air tight containers have been around for thousands of years... It wouldn't take any real miracle for joe schmoe at the turn of the century to stumble across a fairly effective way to keep air and moisture away from a given stack of coins... (and they didn't use very much PVC at the turn of the century either)...

Anyway, I am no expert on coin cleaning... I am merely pointing out that using phrases like 'undeniable and irrefutatable' does not make your statements undeniable and irrefutable... It simply makes the reader feel as if you are saying his opinion is meaningless to offer... Saying something NEVER happens, is rarely a safe bet... Saying something could NOT be done is rarely a safe bet...

What I do know is that I have seen a box of coins sitting in my room, some silver, some gold, some copper, that look the same today as the day they were put in there and they were collected from someone who had kept them in a bag for 40 plus years... Now neither of us cleaned them, and yet here they sit... Some have very clear toning while others from the same year/mint have very limited toning, if any, to the naked eye... Some look just downright poor, and others look so good as to make me wonder how they could hold up so well, given that the prior owner never took care of them... Bottom line is that coins take a myriad routes to get to their current resting place in my collection, and there are countless variables that go into the final presentation of a coin... It is likely very inaccurate to attribute a number like 80% to the overall number of coins that have been cleaned when your experience has largely been with dealers as you stated... I would bet that the actual percentage of coins that makes it to a dealer is on the smallish side as is the percentage of coins in personal collections that comes from dealers...

I would also ask, if 80 percent of all coins that still look like something akin to the way they left the mint are simply cleaned or dipped, then why does it clearly hurt the value... If everyone is doing it, if it is so widespread, so rampant as we are being told, then the value shouldn't even be affected by it, and thereby this discussion if superfluous anyway, right?..

Anyway, I don't so much disagree that there is a lot of cleaning going on, as much as the way it is being delivered... That if someone does not completely agree, then it is because they are not using THE FACTS, and any SAVVY collector worth his salt knows that most coins are cleaned and doctored... Well, it is really late, but i appreciate being able to throw in my little bit...

B

 

It's true that not all dipping and cleaning effects the value of a coin, however the way a coin is cleaned can have drastic consequences. Careless cleaning can leave scratches and marks on the coin, and excessive dipping strips away luster and color, leaving a dull and lifeless looking coin. In either case, the value is effected because it has been cleaned improperly. It can be completely recognizable and more or less like they looked when they left the mint, but if the cleaning has rendered it unappealing, then the coin's value is going to be hurt. The fact that "everyone is doing it" in no way negates the coin's current state; just because a practice is widespread does not mean its effects are negligible.

 

Yeah, that was kinda my point... I got a collection out of a coinstar machine that some poor gal dumped... I saw a bunch of wheats in the return so I begged them to let me buy the two penny bags... In the bags were about 5 ih's and $63.00 in wheats... A full half of the wheats (and some really great dates and conditions) looked like they had been heavily buffed with some type of really harsh chemical... It clearly makes all the cleaned ones far less appealing... No doubt... I use them as informational coins for my little boy and girl... It is easier to show some details on a very 'clean' coin... But precisely because it DOES still affect the value so much, you can bet that if a cleaned coin makes it's way to one of the big 3 TPG's, they are going to note if it has been 'cleaned'... I mean they even tagged one of the $20 St. G's as 'improperly cleaned' and it would have been a coin worth millions... Since it is such a known fact that cleaning detracts from a coins value, much like refinishing a true antique piece of furniture, I believe there are far more people out there protecting coins the best way they can without scrubbing them with comet and a metal scouring pad... I think 80% is an absurdly high number of coins to assume have been cleaned... Coin collecting is not a new hobby, nor is protecting metal...

Nice response though... Thanks Insomniac...

Editing this to catch the second poster who apparently was typing as I was...

And here is the response to GDJMSP...

First the point about superlatives... I simply feel it leaves no room for debate when someone makes comments that something 'never', that something is 'irrefutable', 'indisputable'... These are 'facts' not opinions... That means of writing is clearly intended to bully someone from challenging your Never-wrong, irrefutable, indisputable facts rather than just depending on strong reasoning...

Now for the rest, I don't believe there were thousands of airtight containers being handed out to coin collectors by Socrates... In fact, I didn't mean to insinuate that at all... My point had more to do with the fact that coins have been found in many, many strange places... People have done wierd things to try and protect coins, and have ended up destroying them... Other times, coins have simply been left in places where they incidentally were protected from the harsher of the elements until a true 'collector' such as yourself came along and found a better way to protect it... Coins are found in better shape than we would expect to find them through simple circumstance... Over thousands of years of coins being used, coin-collecting did not begin with Coin World's first publication... Smarter men than me have for centuries been doing their best to protect some types of coins, and many of those coins are in the hands of wealthy collectors today... To throw a number like 80% out there is simply overstating... Much in the same way that you overstate when you call copper the most reactive metal, or say that a collector from a few short years ago had ZERO means to protect a coin...

And so you know, I learned that toning lesson some time ago... and when I compare the coins in my box, I was simply contrasting the different variables that must have effected the coins... The same coins, from the same time frame, kept in the same way, by the same lady, in the same velvet bag... They sat in a closet for a long time, before the daugther decided to roll them and take them to the bank... That is when I got them, and of course, I never clean a coin... Some of them are so red that it is actually difficult to tell how toned without sitting it next to an untoned coin of the same year... Others are so dark, it is hard to read them... Some coins over the centuries have simply fared better than others up to the point they were found and preserved... and many, many of them were preserved before any significant toning took place... Sometimes a coin is simply just that good... I don't call them out as being cleaned just because I don't own them...