$5 Indian Quiz GTG

Only kidding. GTG = Got those Gouges

Quiz: I have posted four "scrambled" images of small parts of the coin's reverse. What is going on with this coin?









OK, if you don't wish to take a guess, WHAT DO YOU SEE?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Adjustment marks?

 

Interesting that the marks have been fully obliterated by the legends and the rim but the remaining marks in the fields have not been flattened by the raised flats of the die. The marks also appear to have both raised and incuse features to them. All of this implies to me that the marks did not exist on the blank planchet, could not have been caused post-strike, and must have been features of the die. So, I would hazard that the die was damaged in some way. Perhaps somebody dragged a file across the die face and the scratches were not polished out?

 

I'll go first. I see horrible pictures with the wrong white balance. I need to see the entire obverse, rev. and edge which were not posted!

@Publius2

Yikes! Your post has made me check the coin again. Remember we are looking at a coin with its design sunken into the surface.

@cpm9ball

Adjustment marks would be into the planchet as these are. What is the difference between an adjustment mark and these marks?

 

Being a huge lover of Indians, I own quite the tribe..... I am watching this thread with interest..... However I would like to campaign for Insider to give us an instructional tutorial on grading incuse Indians for dummy's.

 

On a $5 Indian, though, the flats on the die are LOWERED, not raised. It's an incuse design.

 

I see... a scratched-up coin. But I don't see any spots where the gouges carry metal into the incuse design elements, and that makes me wonder if I'm missing something important.

I also see a prime example of the optical illusion where hollows look like bumps, and vice-versa.

 

Looks like some kind of damage to the planchet. Possibly wheel marks? Or could be damage from contact with other planchets.

 

Typically when you see parallel lines on a coin that stop at the design elements, they are usually die scratches/die polish lines, but these photos are playing tricks on my eyes. I can't tell if the scratches in question are raised lines or scratches, in fact, I can't even discern that the devices are incuse, even though I know that they are.

Given the appearance of the scratches, which seem to have a varied depth yet all together, it seems that they would most likely be a wheel mark. I have other coins with wheel marks and they bear a similar appearance to the scratches on this coin.

In the 3rd photo, the individual lines at the top look like die scratches. But the the larger patch of scratches above the "S" look like a wheel mark.

I don't think they are adjustment marks, because I am pretty sure the mint had abandoned that practice by the time the Indians were minted.

 

The areas look raised to me...which indicates that something happened to the die to remove material from the die. Whatever it was left fairly parallel lines scratched into the die.

I don't think it's an issue with the planchet, I think it's an issue with the die.

 

jeffB, posted: "I see... a scratched-up coin. But I don't see any spots where the gouges carry metal into the incuse design elements, [BECAUSE?] and that makes me wonder if I'm missing something important. I also see a prime example of the optical illusion where hollows look like bumps, and vice-versa."

Great post.

@Lehigh96

There is an optical illusion due to the position of the light when the image was made. There is a reason the lines look both raised and incuse. There is also a reason the lines don't go into the recesses of the letters. It has to do with the coin's design. There is a reason these marks cannot be adjustment marks and it has nothing to do with the coin's date. I cannot say for sure when the US stopped adjusting the surface of the planchet. I can say for 100% certainty that at some time in the past, the gold planchets were adjusted on the edge of their planchet.
There is a reason these cannot be "wheel marks" because that is a specific term reserved for a specific characteristic that does not look like this. Now, a "grinding wheel" w/metal bristles could leave similar marks if that is what you thought.



@CamaroDMD

In order to leave marks that are into a coin's surface they would need to be RAISED on the die. Do you think the Mint would use a die that looked like that?

 

Worn/overused die strike,some kind of flow lines
e.t.c?this looks familiar to me but I'm probably wrong

 

Out of left field but here goes. The marks in all 4 positions on the coin appear to start at the rim and progress inwards. Could there have been a micro thin finned rim or similar at these places that were broken off and subsequently dragged across upon ejection.

 

I'm pretty sure that the scratches are in the same direction (into the coin) as the design elements, because they're shadowed the same way. In @Insider's latest photo just above, the shadows fall at the top of each design element, and at the top of each scratch. That tells me that the light source is toward the top of the image, casting shadows into the incuse design elements -- and the incuse scratches.

 

Because they appear to be fairly evenly spaced around the coin, I'm guessing mount removal.

 

Getting warm...There is a BIG clue in this post.

 

The whole picture is weird because we all known that the devices on these coins are into the surface. Those photos make them look like they are above the surface.

When you start posting pictures that look like this, along with your super close-ups, I'll play. Otherwise forget it. These are not learning exercises; they are games.

 

I'm liking this answer. The coin was scratched by an implement or the mount when affixing or removing the mount.

 

Yes, I knew that but I didn't pay any attention to the thread title and the photos didn't look incuse to my eye, hence my totally off-base comments. I will try again.

 

John, You seem to be a very advanced collector so...I personally don't care if you take a guess or not. I'm sure you already know all the answers and if you posted the thread would be ended quickly. In fact, it may be best for your health to put me on ignore because I don't wish to agitate you as I tried to do with the GTG title and small images. I'm just not a nice guy and I cannot help myself.




Now, as far as this image goes, much of the time the troughs around the letters look raised and then, as I look at it for a while, it looks just as it should with a raised letter sunken into the surface. Fortunately, when the answer is given, this optical illusion and size of the images will not matter.