Bu = ms 60?

Forgive me if this question has already been asked and answered, but I am new and the ‘Search’ function didn’t produce any fruit (nor did various Google searches).

My question is simple: does BU = MS 60?

I’m a relatively new collector and have been working on acquiring sets of this grade starting from the moderns (US issue) and working backward. If we look at your typical eBay listing, you see items that have included the BU moniker. I’ve already learned that a lot of ‘BU’ items are really perhaps only AU, whether intentional or due to ignorance (but I have seen a high degree of correlation between the more scarce years/mint marks and AU coins). So I’m now intimate with the term ‘slider’.

Anyhow, I’m now looking for a set of Franklins and I have a couple of vendors who have given me a price for their sets. The trouble is, they both have said that their set is ‘above average BU’ (and their prices reflect such when compared to Greysheet). So I have asked their clarification on what ‘above average BU means’ but have yet to receive a response.

If it wasn’t for Greysheet (or Redbook) I wouldn’t have any idea if a coin were worth $2, $20, or $200, so I use it and the percentage a given offer is at relative to ‘bid’ as to whether the deal is worth it or not. So, when a set is listed as BU, I’ll look in the Monthly’s ‘Single Sets and Roll Sets’ section. But if I’m to take what I’m told at face value, I really should be adding up all of the individual prices in the Supplement’s ‘Franklin Half Dollar’ section. But the trouble is “what’s above average BU” as far as the Sheldon Scale goes? I mean on a strictly numeric value average is MS 65 right? Or if we were to look at it from a population perspective, it would be lower, perhaps MS 61. So I guess I need to be pricing based on an MS63 or MS67 (yea right) grade. And even then, this assumes that the coins would grade out as the seller assumes.

 

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BU is a very loose term, directly translated its *Brilliant Un-circulated* a lot of ebay users use it, honestly it can mean anything on ebay. Honestly if I see BU on ebay, I assume its AU material.

 

Strictly speaking according to the numismatic definitions of the BU runs 60-62 Choice BU is a 63, select bu is a 64, Gem BU is a 65, and ultra gem bu is 66+. That is strictly speaking, so your better BU coins are mostly 61 or 62.

 

Many catalog advertisements list coins as BU. It is a catch-all for 60-63 most of the time. The magazine will specify its ads grading requirements somewhere in its pages in fine print... So BU means different things to different people.. as you point out.

You point out the problem with buying sight unseen, the importance of knowing how to grade, and the need to ask dealers to translate into a numerical grade what their "BU" is.

 

There really is no clear definition, BU (Brilliant Uncirculated) describes any mint state coin (MS60-70), but BU usually refers to the lower grade coins (MS60-62).

Personally "above average BU" sounds like BS to me. So without seeing the coins you really cant tell, so pics would be a must.

Btw before the 70 Sheldon scale, the grades were approximately BU (60-62) Choice BU (63-64) and Gem BU (65), but the names don't really translate into numeric grades exactly.

 

Ok, then let’s get on to a touchy subject. Is it just a generally accepted practice to over grade coins for the purpose of selling at the highest price? What do you suppose the median integrity level is on eBay? Aren’t there a good many coin dealers on there selling? (And I mean affiliated dealers, not So an So’s Card Shoppe.) Is ‘Above average BU’ a BS statement? Or perhaps is it just that we (well you really because I’ll still be ignorant for another 19 years and 6 months) stay away from specific terms like MS 63 because grading is so subjective?

I mean for a guy like me (at least in this point in my journey) all I desire is to pull out a nice shiny (book) of silver coins for my friends to look at and remember back to that day in 19xx when that coin was minted they were…

I’m only asking because it seems like I’m being a real PITA if I ask questions (of sellers).

 

So therefore, it is nearly impossible to purchase BU coins, unless they are graded/slabbed.

I'm just and I mean barely able to distinguish the beginnings of wear on a coin, and that is if I have the coin in my hand, under magnification, and can hand it to someone next to me with sufficient experience and say "what do you think". There's no way I can do it with pictures, even with thos of such high quality I see on eBay.

 

Oh that's right (I remember reading that somewhere). So 'Average BU' is just an unofficial statement.

 

There are honest dealers on eBay, and I've delt with a few that have been great. Davenders is one of those sellers, from my experience his grades are spot on, and on the one rare occasion when I was unhappy with a coin, it was replaced no problems.

But in general I wouldn't trust the majority of "grades" on eBay.

 

Absolutely not, but as a purchaser I must "assume the worst". I have no idea who the seller is, nor do I know if they have edited the photos in any way. That's the main problem with purchasing on ebay. High quality pictures don't always mean they are not edited in some way. I have purchased a couple coins with "high quality pictures" that, in hand, look nothing like the photo displayed. Buying coins is a matter of trust, if I have no idea who that person is I must automatically protect myself from a loss. There are plenty of nice coins on ebay, but in my experience its a matter of luck sometimes.

 

Well ain't that a coincidence, I'm pretty sure I've purchased from him. (But he is not one of the two I'm dealing with on this issue.)

 

Ain't that the truth. Two prior lives: Cars and Guns. I'd pretty much consider myself an expert in these two categories, but sadly getting there cost me tens of thousands of dollars and a great deal of heartache. I'd really like to avoid these two things in this journey.

 

Terminology of coins grades is really a lot of different possibilities. For some dealers that were grown up with G,F,Unc and Proof, it is difficult to pop up with MS-61 or something like that. They try but it is so much easier to say what you think when what you think is based on the good old days.
Of course there are those dealers that really don't know so they say post something to make a sale. Others know that many collectors also have no idea of what MS-60 means so they attempt to make a sale based on what the colletor knows. Your statement alone indicates how many new collectors feel when the see such things as F-12 for a coins grade. Why not just say FINE? Then there could be someone with a F-13?
So welcome to the world of confusion. Being new just wait until you try to find out where there is an acccurate, up to date, reliable coin price list.

 

you mean the redbook isn't THE market??! :whistle:

 

If I read it correctly, I think he was trying to say his journey to becoming an expert in these various fields. I didn't get that he was trying to make investing strategies.

But I feel that the journey to becoming a expert at things is trial and error, and a lot of homework. Making mistakes and learning from them is rather valuable, yet costly sometimes.

 

Its sort of like back in English class when the Teacher asked you to find the meaning of life in a three line poem. :goofer:

 

Instead of starting a new thread, thought I'd just enter a plug on a grading thread already here to see if I could get some other opinions.

An old friend asked me to put together a WLH Collection Album for them. I told them they would learn and enjoy it more if they did it themselves, but I would be glad to help. Since they don't do the internet thing, they will go slow and go to coin shows, stores, estate auctions, etc., and I will pick one for them from time to time. Besides, they are retired and will enjoy doing some searching.

Anyway, they have a few to start with, but asked me to pick them out a nice 1941, so I thought I'd see if anyone would care to offer up an opinion.

Thanks,
Chuck

 

Simply stated 'set collecting, US, modern, working backward'. Given a target 'grade' of BU combined with the fact that the next round of purchases (Buffalo, Mercury, Walker, and Peace) will tend to get pricey, I though I had better gather some more knowledge.

With an investment, I'm looking for a return. Here, I'm looking to collect and do so economically. I say this becuase for the most part, I don't sell. I've been known to 'give away' both figuratively and literally, but I'm not buying to get a return.

I've asked myself a number of times, and as I alluded to in an earlier post that I've had a few other hobbies, am I in it for the items or am I in it to 'work' the best deals? I still can't answer that question.

You say that investing in coins is a terrible idea, why so?