The Rainbow Toned Coin Market--Journey of an 1881-S Morgan Dollar

That is simply untrue. I would use Mark Feld as an example, and there are others.

Or perhaps they simply want to make a fair profit and not gouge their clients.

I, for one, will not play the "try and hook a sucker with a high price, but negotiate with those in the know" game. That, to me, says that a dealer is dishonest -- after all, if he'll gouge someone who doesn't know any better, why would he be upfront and honest in other ways. It is worth noting that with the principal at Anaconda, this was proven to be true, and I think that if you question others "in the know" about the other toner dealers you mention, you will hear similar ancedotes.

Lastly, I dispute the assertion that "If every toned coin dealer follows the same practice, that does make the market." Specifically, I would suggest that it makes the retail market for those dealers who seek to fleece the unsuspecting. It does not account for the equally large segment of toned coins that either pass through auction, or pass through dealers that don't try and gouge the public, or pass from collector to collector -- and combined they are much larger than the few well-known dealers who you've mentioned.

 

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I have already stated that the most accurate photo was the last slab photo (Polaris photo). If you think that is close to black then okay. I have seen the coin in hand and while it is dark, it is not close to black and is very appealing. Both you and Doug would like people to believe that you must turn a toned coin at just the right angle for the colors to show and that otherwise the coin just appears dark. This is simply not true other than toned proofs (especially copper) and iridescent toned coins. Bag toned Morgans show their colors at just about every angle other than straght on. I don't know why one would care what the coin looks like at a distance since most people view them directly under a light with usually with a loupe.

Furthermore, I don't consider a photographer who makes the coins appear better than they are a good one. I consider a good photographer one that is able to accurately show the true colors, details, and overall appearance of coin as it would look in hand. I believe that a small group of photographers are able to this. The group would include people like Mark Goodman, Todd Pollack, and yes, Brandon Kelley.

I believe that you have seen more of their inventory in hand than I have. I don't believe that you scrutinized their entire inventory at their table. If you want, I can start posting more coins I purchased from Anaconda along with my photos for comparison.

I would like to reword my intial statement. Anaconda did not purchase exceptional toned coins, they purchased coins with exceptional toning. The majority of their inventory was common date grade stuff that was overgraded due to the customary market bump given by the TPG's for exceptional toning. They were not exceptional coins with regards to strike or surface preservation. Luster is a very important factor with regards to toned coins and the slab photos could usually give you a better indication of the luster. Some of their coins had good luster, others didn't. I would like to point out that you have a discipline to your collecting style that demands the utmost quality in every aspect for every coin in your collection. Very few collectors are as discriminating as you are and you must allow for others with lesser standards or knowledge than you to have different opinions of the same coins.

If Anaconda and every other major toned coin dealer follows the same practice of using good photos to sell their coins at higher prices than those that choose to sell them with substandard photos, why shouldn't it define market prices. Sight seen auction prices are fine, but most of the coins at major auctions are purchased by dealers at wholesale prices for the purpose of re-sale. I can't count how many Heritage auction lots I bid on that I lost to Anaconda who then sold them for a sizeable profit on their retail website. However, it would be cheaper for me to purchase the coins from Anaconda at their price than it would to take time off work and pay for travel expenses to attend the show myself. I did not see a big difference between Anaconda and most of the other toned coin dealers with regards to price and still don't now that Anaconda is gone. I have even seen the boys at CRO sell a toned coins for a significant premiums using the same business model. Last time I checked, Mark Goodman does all of their photography. Don't get me wrong, I am not comparing the quality of CRO's inventory to that of Anaconda's. CRO has coins of impeccable quality, but that does not preclude them from selling the occasional toned Morgan for a significant premium using a Mark Goodman photo.

Now Mike I clearly stated that their initial list price was $1,000 per coin making their initial markup 37%. I negotiated the price down to a 19% markup. I still overpaid, but their is no way I am auctioning them in a Heritage sale just to solve this debate. In addition, I would not consider auctioning them to Heritage unless I was guaranteed an oversized photo along with the slab photo. Under that scenario, I am very confident that the coins achieve comparable prices to their last auction performance.

It is perfectly acceptable to create a catchy title in order to attract readers as long as you make qualifying statements within your writing that set the record straight. I thought I did that.

 

I have looked at Mark's inventory and would not classify him as a major player in the toned coin market. He has nice coins, some with nice toning, and his photos need improvement IMO.

Or perhaps they don't have the capital necessary to have coins sitting in their inventory for a long time and need to sell more quickly to maintain cash flow. I can make suppostions also.

I never once spoke with or had any dealings with Adrian Crane. After reading the ridiculous story he posted on the NGC website when he returned from Costa Rica, I believe what you say to be true and don't doubt that about the other toned coin dealers as well. The difference is I don't care. I am not being gouged. I do know better and make a conscious choice when I purchase a coin from one of these dealers which is a rare occurence by the way. I still obtain the majority of my coins sight unseen from Heritage auctions.

My point is you can't ignore that major players in the toned coin arena have a significant impact on the market simply because you don't agree with their business practices or ethics. I should note that Doug believes that the majority of clients that buy these high priced coins from these dealers are people like me, not newbies being fleeced.

 

I guess your definition of "dark" and my definition of "close to black" aren't the same. Fair enough -- they are certainly subjective words. However to illustrate the point I'm making, please take a photo of the coin with your hand or some other known tonality (a piece of white paper, for instance) along with the coin in indirect light and post it. Similar to the way one would view a coin at arm's length. That will show just what I'm referring to, and just how dark the coin is or is not.

The first part is a fair criticism, particularly the way I worded the sentence you quoted. Your point is a fair one with respect to toning on Morgans in particular and non-proofs. However, that does not take away from the preceding point -- the coin appears much darker in hand.

As an aside, and why I say that authoritatively, is because I know precisely the tonality of the plastic in a PCGS slab and the blue label. So while I may not have seen the coin in-hand, I do have a very good idea of these known quantities. I suspect you realize that, but some playing at home may not...

Well said.

FYI, I spend probably an hour at their table both years and looked carefully at every coin. I inspected quite a number of coins under a light with a loupe. Prior to the first time to their table, I did spend an evening on their website studying their photos. I even had a nice conversation with Brandon and another collector while we waited for FUN to open one morning, in 2007, IIRC. So perhaps scrutinizing their entire inventory was a bit overstated, but I did see every coin they had at their table, and went to their table the first year with the intent of answering the whole "what do these coins really look like in-hand" question.

That set aside for a moment, I don't think it's necessary for you to post your photographs, particularly because they are done using lighting and photographic techniques that mimic Brandon's. However, as asked above, I would like you to take a few photos with the coin in an "arm's length" fashion to show some of those who haven't had the chance to view these types of coins in hand what they look like when not under the lights, as a demonstration of what I'm talking about.

Again, well said. Your criticism is fair and duly noted.

I think most of the above is well said, however, I must reiterate that a few of the top end dealers should be considered the market. I would suggest the vast majority of toned coins don't go through this handful of dealers.

As an aside, and why I think you and Doug/I butt heads quite a bit is because I think you are judging the market by your perspective of the market (i.e. through the internet). Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but I think that my experience on the bourse has really changed the way I view the coin market. Even more bluntly, I thought much like you did before I "saw the light" and spent more time on the bourse, and I have to wonder if that's not at least part of why we seem to butt heads on these topics.

And I think it is equally acceptable to point out the difference between the catchy title and the point being made by the initial post, particularly if the qualifying words were one sentence in the middle of a paragraph near the end of a long (and very nice, by the way) post.

 

Two points.... First, you shouldn't judge Mark's coins by what you see on his website (or just about any dealer's website -- the best stuff gets sold). Second, I will wager his customers are far less frequently disappointed in the quality of the coin they receive versus what they were led to believe by his photos. Third, I think your definition of "major player" in the toned coin market is a bit internet-centric and, frankly, incorrect.

I am not making suppositions. I speak from direct conversations on these topics with dealers. Could they be lying, perhaps. Do I believe them, yes.

From our interactions here and elsewhere, I know you are going into this with your eyes open. While I like the back-and-forth, it is not trying to convince you that makes me type what I type. I know we are going to agree to disagree -- and I'm fine with that. I type what I do for the ones out there who don't have your level of experience.

I'm not suggesting that we ignore them. To the contrary, their effect needs to be understood and factored into any view of the toned coin market. But similarly, the other mechanisms for toned coin trading need to be taken into account.

As for the typical purchaser of coins from these folks. I think there is a segment of the toner population who is very well educated and knows what they are doing. They pick the true monsters when they see them and don't discriminate on dealers. However, I do feel that there is a significant portion of the collecting population -- to include me at one point -- that spends more money than they probably should be, gets pulled in by the glamor photographs and finds out too late they've been fleeced.

My only hope is that our discussion here might open the eyes of others, so that they take the time to find out for themselves the realities of the coin game, and make informed decisions with their eyes open to some of the games that go on.

Take care...Mike

p.s. thanks for taking the time to respond and allowing me the same opportunity -- I always enjoy our discussions.

 

Mike,

I would like to explore the difference in perspective caused by experience on the bourse floor. If they ever bring a major show to Philadelphia again, I will probably attend. Better yet, I wish they would bring a show to Atlantic City. Air travel will be difficult because most travelers will have to fly into Philadelphia airport which is over an hour away by car, but I am sure most would have a great time in Atlantic City.

The information that I have gathered from others about the bourse floor is that you find predominantly local collectors along with buyers for the larger numismatic firms buying coins. All the major firms have tables and many smaller dealers as well.

Any thing you could share on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I have no doubts that if I attended the major shows and developed personal relationships with dealers and collectors and gained first hand experience buying coins sight seen, I would become a much more astute coin collector.

Paul

 

Paul, Couldn't you use a little vacation in Orlando in January? We have a nice poker room about an hour towards Tampa, too. I think your eyes will be opened if you attend one of the larger shows (Baltimore, FUN, ANA, etc.). I know mine were. Take care...Mike

 

I just used all my vacation time. I returned from Mexico two days before Thanksgiving. Baltimore might be a possibility, that is within driving distance.

 

This may be slightly off topic, but it belongs in this thread.

How refreshing it is to read well presented, logical, and supported arguments without seeing anyone getting hot under the collar and/or personal. I only wish I could be so write so eloquently lat alone type well enough to put it in here.