I got the 1880 shield nickel in this morning, and was somewhat dismayed to see that it really has a prooflike appearance....but...I found this on the PCGS site: [FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Finding a frosty Mint State coin can be a frustrating experience, as even the true business strikes encountered likely are to be somewhat prooflike, if not totally prooflike! So what is the determining factor here? I read that the proofs have a beveled edge, and this one is not. It's rounded. In any case, I made a deal with the seller. If it comes back a proof, he will adjust the price lower. If it comes back as a business strike, when I sell the coin I'll split the profit with him. Both partied are agreeable to that arrangement, so I'll be OK either way, but this is a real head scratcher. One otehr thing that's interesting, is that on the first picture I tried to shoot of this coin, a ghost of another "1" appeared to the left of the date. I have misplaced my loupe, so that's going to keep me busy for awhile. Nightowl [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Interesting question. Yes, proofs are supposed to have a squared edge. I can assure you there can be much disagreement about whether or not a given 19th century coin is a proof or not; this is less rock-solid determinate than some would like (or believe). Even experts will sometimes disagree. Sometimes, proofs and business strikes were struck from the same dies. Usually (maybe "always"), the proofs were struck first. If so, the proofs are the earliest die states and the determining factor can be certain die state diagnostics such as die cracks. Put another way - a coin will be judged business strike if it has die clashes or die cracks at a certain advanced state. Since die cracks "evolve", this too can be a judgement call. Good luck !
On the shield nickels you can't depend on the squared edge to identify a proof. Identifying proofs from business strikes on this series is an exercise in frustration. And you can't count on the TPG's to get it right either. (Although the investors don't seem to care and will happily pay silly money for common proofs in MS holders.) The TPG's seem to know they have a problem with this so they will tend to put anything that MIGHT be a proof in a proof holder rather than risk being on the hook for MS money if they put a coin in an MS holder and it is later called a proof. Unfortunately there is no diagnostic I can tell you that will let you say for sure "AH HA! See here! This definitely shows that it's a ______ coin!"
Thanks... I'd have bet anything that the graders at the TPGs would argue amongst themselves about it and not always get it right. This is indeed one of the cases where the same dies were used for both business strikes and proofs. Still need to decide which service....hmmm. Nightowl
I would say yes to that in general. For the 1880 proof there are two major varieties - the first normal proof has an 8 touching the ball and then the 8 is recut farther to the south and then correct. On this variety on the reverse the S in cents and second S in states are patched because of broken hub. This patch was done by hand and it is straight across to the serif. It is said most of the proofs of this year are this variety - I got this from PDF I have by Michael Wescott down loaded off the www.shieldnickels.net website. So post some pictures of the coin and maybe Ed Fletcher will drop by and offer an opinion. I am not shy I still have an email address for him and might ask him to take a look. You could also probably email Howard Spindel off of that site shieldnickels.net site. So about some pictures with close-ups of the second S in states and the S in cents.
Thanks Mark....I'll try and post some pics this evening. The reverse is definitely that of the broken and repaired hub. The ghost "1" that I saw on the first picture I took...and have since deleted was interesting. I deleted it by accident. Still haven't located my loupe. Nightowl
This is a horribly difficult coin to photograph. My little hundred dollar Kodak isn't up to the task. These are in mixed lighting, and probably the best this thing is going to be able to do. I still haven't found my loupe. Been busy taking pictures, But from these pictures, the reverse doesn't look to be the repaired hub. I'll ask around and see if I don't know somebody who has a better camera. Nightowl
Well I am still not sure. I noticed on heritage that the auctions say the say dropped 8 as I mentioned above was used for business strikes. Also on this variety there is a lump of metal under the right serif of the second t in states. I don't see that lump here, but that just means it is not a dropped 8 business strikes. I also read there is a star like projection on a lot of proofs(mine has this), yet there is also a ms coin(at least graded on heritage) with this same projection. I will ask Ed to stop buy - that won't hurt, plus I want to get his new book.
I looked for awhile on Heritage looking for the projection from the denticles at 7 o'clock on the obverse and never did find one. I just decided that this one didn't have that feature....or it would be easy to spot. Appreciate the help from both of you guys. This is a real confusing issue, and one that the newbie could never unravel. I've been around coins for decades...but I only own 2 shield nickels. This one, and an 1867 in VF. My thinking...and it may be flawed, is that proofs were struck multiple times, which would bring up the wire (squared or beveled) edge, and would render the lettering on the reverse more fully. I think this coin was struck but once. But I'm not a TPG...that's just my own opinion....but based on logic at least. Nightowl
If you get this one in business strike then you need to do the rest of the series in business strike. This one is the toughest of the lot. I am missing one proof only date - 1877 of course and only 1 business strike the 1880. Then I have a bunch of the DDO's - you probably can see some of them if you search on my name and shield. I really like some of the varieties you can get. I really like shield nickels and am looking forward to getting the book by Ed Fletcher that he is working on - I also have my fingers crossed that he includes pictures of one of my coins.
Some of the DDOs are pretty impressive. I was checking those out at shieldnickels.net. Hope you get some of your coins pictured in the book. There's a well known (in that circle) banjo book that has one in it that I owned...which is pretty cool. Nightowl
I have to tell a funny story on myself.... I went to the post office this morning and picked up this coin....twice. I opened it and a couple other things while I was still there. I put the flying eagle penny and an Indian head in my watch pocket of my pants, slipped the shield nickel back into the envelope that it came in and went home. I thought that I'd put the (still wrapped) shield nickel in my watch pocket too....but nope...I looked 3 times and it still wasn't there. I had tossed the envelope that still had the nickel in it... into the garbage can at the post office! I had to run back down the hill and retrieve it. I was having little heart attacks all the way back down the hill. Thanks goodness we live in a really small town, and nobody was dumpster diving the can in the lobby of the PO. Nightowl
"I had tossed the envelope that still had the nickel in it... into the garbage can at the post office! "
Unfortunately when it comes to the Shield nickels it is flawed. The proof shield nickels often were struck only once and as I mentioned the edges often are NOT squared off. If it wasn't for the existence of pieces that clearly are proofs (Strong mirrors and cameo contrast) and that there are records of proofs being struck, we would probably have decided long ago that they DIDN'T make proofs. After all what can you really point to to tell them apart. They used the same dies for both, struck the coins just one time, most proofs don't have squared edges, poor quality mirrors, and the business strikes often have prooklike surfaces. Mark, I'm glad you like Michael Wescott's book. I was one of the contributors and I helped with some of the editing. I think if I remember correctly though the patched S is the FIRST S in STATES. That first S broke on the master hub and a great many of the shield nickel dies have the top of the S broken. On one of the 1880 proof varieties the top of the S was crudely recut straight across by hand to patch it. (I'm operating on memory here from a study I made of proof shield nickel varieties back in the late 80's. Unfortunately I can't double check my notes as most of them were lost in my 1997 apartment fire.)
