Attribution of medieval Hungarian denar?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by pianoman, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. pianoman

    pianoman New Member

    Hi all,

    Just picked up a 1567 Hungarian denar. I have a few other pieces from this period but this one struck me as odd. It's a bit smaller (~10mm) in diameter than all of my other examples, and lacks lettering on both obverse and reverse. I have not been able to find any comparable coins on PCGS or Numista. I suspect it might be a variety but I don't have access to the Huszar catalog. Any ideas for the proper attribution of this coin?

    Thank you!
     

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  3. John Conduitt

    John Conduitt Well-Known Member

    I think it's been clipped - as many hammered coins were. Madonna once had a crown and it would've originally had legends, more like this https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces22141.html.

    Much like this siliqua of Valentinian II:
    upload_2021-4-30_23-10-58.png

    ...once looked more like this siliqua of Julian:
    upload_2021-4-30_23-11-39.png

    Before milled coins were invented, clipping was an easy way to steal silver, although there were other reasons - like making gaming tokens or reducing old siliquas to the size of the prevailing sceattas.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
    NOS likes this.
  4. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    I agree with @John Conduit coin clipping was very common for coins of this era.
    That kept their silver content in line with the prevailing coins of the day and allowed them to be more likely to stay in circulation instead of being melted down.

    Right: a clipped coin of Wencezlaus II next to a full-sized coin of a little later. Missing or cropped edge text is a telltale sign (as opposed to just worn or an off-center strike).
    ob copy.jpg ob copy.jpg
     
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  5. Bradley Trotter

    Bradley Trotter Well-Known Member

    I agree with the others. It was most likely clipped sometime in the distant past. Case in point, here's an example belonging to one of the moderators that has a diameter of 15mm.

    https://collectivecoin.com/lordmarcovan/nxfbLaouHlMuU7W5B34R/bC6O9NtUWcZ6f3f7RbbF
     
  6. pianoman

    pianoman New Member

    Interesting. Thank you all for the replies. Any ideas why it straight-graded/why PCGS didn't note such an obvious alteration? For instance, I have a NGC-graded Charles XII shilling with similar circumference clipping that only received a "Genuine" grade.
     
  7. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    The coin straight graded because it has not been clipped. It is an Obulus, not a Denar. It should weigh
    .22 grams, give or take .02. It was minted in
    Kormocbanya.
     
  8. NOS

    NOS Former Coin Hoarder

    Here is a link to the certification: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/41450555. If you're right then PCGS has made a mistake with the denomination they have on their site. To me it looks clipped but I have not been able to find pictures of a confirmed obulus from the 1560's era to compare to this one.

    No matter what, the information on the PCGS site is off or lacking; it's possible if it is a denar the clipping designation is on the holder but has been omitted from the online details.
     
  9. pianoman

    pianoman New Member

    The holder only reads "1567-KB Hungary Denar AU55," no designation of clipping.
     
  10. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    Here are two Obulus that are coming up for auction.
    https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4715&lot=413
    https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4715&lot=414
    Here are two Denars from the same period of time from the same auction.
    https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4715&lot=410
    https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4715&lot=411
    The Obulus and Denar are quite different once you study the
    comparison pictures. Most of the time the Obulus is valued 2X
    that of a Denar, condition being the same.
    This is the OP's picture.
    https://www.cointalk.com/attachments/6215988464516939480-1-jpg.1296603/
     
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  11. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    I am not sure why people are suggesting it’s clipped - here’s a denar from the previous decade:
    02-Hun-Ferdinand I-AR-D-01.jpg
    obol is a generic term for a smaller denomination for Deniers - usually viewed as half value I believe that’s often speculation. Obols tend to be rarer than Denars too
     
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  12. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

  13. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    PCGS is so-so for world coins. I'm not surprised they thought it was a denár. These are all similar and very tiny coins.

    As mentioned above, it's an obolus (worth half a denár), H#995.
     
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  14. pianoman

    pianoman New Member

    Thank you all very much for the responses, I appreciate the sleuthing!

    Would it be worth it to try and get it re-holdered?
     
  15. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    Why not? It's their mistake. They will correct the label for free. The denari are not rare. The oboli are.
     
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