Hello everyone, About a decade ago I learned of the Spanish 8 reales coin. I found one with some chop marks and purchased it. I thought this was very “cool”, and had no idea if this was a good or bad thing in the eye of a collector. I personally love it, and probably still consider my favorite coin that I own. Are chop marks desired? Quick follow up: does any information exist pertaining to the origin of the marks themselves? Thank you for taking the time to read.
Welcome to the CT Family! Chop marks are like a coins travel diary. Different Assayers have checked the coin as it has passed through their hands. I believe some can be traced to certain people, as the chop mark is unique, others not so. Any way you look at it, they ARE cool, I believe they add to their value, my opinion, but I will leave it to the experts in this area to chime in.
Hi Novice and welcome to CT.... Your question has been a topic for some time. Some, like myself relate to the history that those chop marks represent. Others view them as damage. And I suppose in the literal sense, damage is truly what they are. Myself, I prefer to see the chop marks on the reales that I own..... But you will get wildly varied answers.
I think they are really cool and they're part of the coins history. Would I pay a significant premium for one of these with chop marks vs one without? Probably not, but if I could acquire one for a similar price I would go for it, pretty neat.
And US Trade Dollars? My thinking is that they're alright in moderation - until they interfere too much with the devices.
I may be wrong, but these do not look like oriental chop marks. It may be that someone made those to pass the coin off as real to get more money for it. Have you weighed the coin, and can you get someone to use an XRF Analyzer to verify the metal content? To me, it doesn't look right. Here is one I took off the net.
The coin weighs 26.89 grams, which seems to be in the acceptable range for its wear. It would be very disappointing if these marks were put there more recently to pass off as real, or worse, if the coin isn’t real at all. I had better start investigating this coin to find out. Thank you.
I've posted this photo of a silver Japanese 1 yen coin in other threads, but to the left of the circular "gin" countermark, is a very pretty chopmark. It may technically be damage, but this one is both attractive and unobtrusive. I generally like chopmarks on coins, but not all chopmarks are created equal. I don't like the ones that are so heavily applied, that they bend the coin and create additional wear on the opposite side of the coin. Another interesting point: In Japan where I live, the Japanese collectors like to have pristine coins, so for example, they don't tend to like toning even if it is attractive. And chopmarks are really unpopular, to the point where it's always considered as damage, and the price is much lower.... so you can often pick up an AU coin with chopmarks, for 2/3 or even half the price of a pristine AU coin. I found it interesting, as mentioned by some others above, that in some circles, chopmarked silver coins may actually have equal or even higher value than unchopped coins.
Some people like them, some people don't. I personally strongly dislike them and would never buy a chopped coin, but that's my own opinion. I also would never buy a sea-salvaged coin showing the "shipwreck effect," but again, that's my own opinion. For the right buyers, chopped coins are very popular.
I think they look like normal Asian chop marks. Several of them are recognizable characters such as 山, 方, 元. Not all assayers used characters as their symbols, so I wouldn't rule them out as genuine chops because of the moon or circle marks. Anyway, I like chops and seek them out. But, they are almost always cheaper than an intact coin in the same grade, especially in the higher grades. That's just how the market views them. If chop marks did carry a substantial premium over intact coins, then we'd probably start seeing an epidemic of fake chops on coins. Anyway, a couple of my chopped coins shown below. Almost all were substantially cheaper than a clean version would have been. You can see there's a lot of variety in the chop shapes, and not all are Chinese characters. 1 Yen Meiji 20 1 Yen Meiji 45 8 Reales 1796 Mexico 8 Reales Mexico 1791
Chop marks are damage. But there are collectors of chop marks. They are interesting and in some cases you can tell the history of the coin.
They used to be very looked down upon in the collecting realm. I found an 8 reales in a junk bin at a coin dealer one time and he let me buy it for what at the time was melt value - $5: This coin clearly demonstrates a cross-Pacific trade that is oft overlooked in modern history - the Spanish in Mexico were trading with the Chinese in Asia and paid for their goods in 8 reales coins that then traded in China for decades afterwards. Porcelain wares, cutlery etc were the goods they were purchasing and then transporting to Mexico and then onto Spain.
I used to be a very enthusiastic chop collector. Rising prices and a move towards ancients have caused me to move on, but I have some of them still. When I started collecting chops in 1987, they were starting to rise above the "damaged" category, but many bargains could be had back then. Not so much now. Back in the day Frank Rose's book on Chopmarks was considered the main authority for these. There appears to be a newer work available, but I have not seen it: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/new-book-on-chopmarked-coins.250400/ Here are a few of mine: French Indo China piastre - note this has so many chops it is bent: Great Britain trade dollar: Philippines peso - the issues by the USA are fairly common chopped: Philippine peso - 1897 Spanish issue - these were rarely chopped - the weight was too low to compare to the Mexican pesos, so most of these were melted, not chopped: Mostly the Mexican cap-and-rays are what you will find for later chops. A lot of these were chopped, usually with small chopmarks, but they can be found, as here, with large chopmarks: Some oddball crowns can be found chopped - Netherlands 2.5 gulden were chopped from time to time, according to Frank Rose. I'd be worried about counterfeits with these (as I am with this one):
why would a particular merchant apply a chop to a coin that already has one or more? does this imply a lack of trust, or, is there another reason?
A chop mark tells people in a relatively small community that this assayer has vouched for the weight/fineness of the coin. I don't think it carries much authority outside of people who would know of the chop mark stamper personally and could take ease knowing that he had vouched for the coin. As the coin circulated around different parts of a country (or other countries even), it could acquire new chop marks for each part of its journey.
