The City of LOMDOM - A Long Sought Error

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by TheRed, Apr 19, 2021.

  1. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    Groats of Edward III are one of my favorite type of coin to collect. They have a very pleasing size and weight, and a nice look in hand when well struck. The groats have the bust of the king on the obverse and two sets of legends, including the name of the mint, set around a long cross pattee on the reverse. A typical example is this Series D groat from London.
    Edward III Series D.jpg
    The series of groats for Edward III have a number of stand-out series, mints, and sub-types. Over the years I have added a good number of groats to my collection. That said, there are still a number of them that I have yet to add to my collection. Several are groats that stand out because they contain errors, such as the misspelling of the name of the mint on the reverse. The majority of groats were minted in London, and is rendered as LON/DON in the inner reverse legend. In some cases the die engraver blundered the legend. My most recent addition has the city of London spelled as LOM/DOM.
    LOMDOM groat.png
    Edward III AR Groat 4th Coinage Series E
    27.1 mm 4.41 g
    Obv: EDWARD R G REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB
    Rev: POSVI/DEVM A/DIVTOR/EM MEV; LOM/DOM/CIVI/TAS
    SCBC.1567 N.1163

    This isn't the only misspelling of London that is known to exist. There is a rather rare variety that has London spelled as DON/DON, and another more common with it spelled as LOII/DOII. I have yet to add either to my collection, but hope to in the future.

    Please feel free to post your coins that have blundered legends or misspellings, ancient or medieval.
     
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  3. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    The red, Is that a letter M or an N with the slash mark going the wrong way o_O?
     
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  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Lovely groat, regardless, but the LONDOM [sic] is neat. I was unaware of this variety.

    Good question. I mean, it does look more like a retrograde N than an M?
     
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  5. Mammothtooth

    Mammothtooth Stand up Philosopher, Vodka Taster

    May I ask how much these go for?
     
  6. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Freaking Brilliant post and coins, @TheRed. To @Al Kowsky's point, sometimes the mistakes are attributable --even with London issues, even this late-- to what dies and die punches happened to be ready to hand. A collector from the UK who I've had the honour of correspondence with (and who really should be published) noted that this was especially true of the highly unsettled reign of Henry IV (1399 -1413). In the much more stable reign of Edward III, the mere fact that groats, as a sustained issue, were still in their infancy could account for some of the same phenomenon.
    ...More to @Al Kowsky's and @lordmarcovan's points, as of the 14th century, the die-sinking machinery would have been in place --under ideal circumstances, at least-- to the extent that retrograde 'N's (and 'M's that look like 'H's, and so forth) would have been much less common than the same kind of phenomenon, which is endemic to (for one collective instance) French feudal of the 12th and 13th centuries. @TheRed, am I making this up, or do retrograde 'N's still occasionally show up on Edward I's 'new coinage' pennies?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  7. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I think you're looking at the top coin in the post, not the second one... which is the one @TheRed is referring to. It's clearly an M.

    Here's a much earlier version of this error! (Reverse mintmark)
    max lon follis.jpg
     
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  8. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Aha! So I now see.

    Wouldn’t an M of the period normally have been a more curve-sided, Lombardic-style thing? Like so?

    9B21898C-962D-45F7-8395-B6BB9DDB9AED.jpeg

    I see the LOMDOM now. Two “M’s”.

    Obviously I wasn’t paying enough attention at first reading.
     
  9. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Thanks for pointing that out ;).
     
  10. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    Thanks for clearing up the confusion @Severus Alexander That is a great coin of Maximian (?), I find it funny that the mistake was being made roughly 1000 years before Edward's die engravers were making it. Having to engrave in the reverse is provably much more difficult than I imagine.

    To your points @lordmarcovan and @+VGO.DVCKS the technology of die engraving was going through a real change under Edward III. The new coinage of Edward I still utilised composite letters in the legends, including retrograde N. Here is a penny of his that I bought because of the quality of the legends.
    Edward I new penny.jpg
    It's really easy to see the punches that were used to make letters like the X, O, D, and W.

    By the time Edward III introduced the groat in his 4th coinage that was still the case. Class B groats are identifiable because of the composite M and E in the legends. Here is my example where it is clear on the reverse.
    Edward III Series B ~3(1).jpg
    That began to change with later issues of coins. The M changes from composite to the Lombardic M made with a single punch. The composite letters E, C, R, and S in the series B groat also change to an integral letter from a single punch over the course of Edwards reign. By the time post-tray groats are being issued in 1369 the only letters that are a composite is the N in the inner reverse legend and the X in the obverse legend. The example of a post-treaty groat below has great legends.
    edward-iii-1327-77-5676114.jpg
    Sadly not my coin, I don't have $3k for a groat. The coins of Richard II are very similar to those of his grandfather, and still retain composite letters such as the N in LON/DON on the reverse of his groats. My example is Type III from London.
    20170714_212227.png
    It is my understanding that composite letters don't disappear from English silver hammered coins until the reign of Henry IV and his light coinage.
     
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  11. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    Groats of Edward III have really increased in price as of late. A common example in VF will probably run $200 now, while rare groats or those in EF grade will run into the $1000+ range. The post treaty groat of Edward III from my post above hammered for almost $4000 in a recent auction.
     
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  12. Mammothtooth

    Mammothtooth Stand up Philosopher, Vodka Taster

    Thanks
     
  13. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    @TheRed, your follow-up is only more impressive than your initial post! Wish you and the UK expert I know could spend an afternoon at a pub. (He preferred bitter, last I knew.)
     
  14. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    @TheRed

    Excellent thread as is usual with your contributions here. The coins are great but the scholarship you demonstrate is just as good. We are lucky to have such expertise here.
     
  15. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    Excellent coin and thread!

    I occasionally see engraving errors in medieval Latin legends that make me assume the engraver didn't read that language. Here is an example. The legend should read "sit laus Deo patri" ('praise be to God the father', 2 Corinthians 1:3), but the engraver botched it:

    MA – Deutschland etc., Lüneburg, Witten, Stern (neu).png
    Lüneburg, City, AR witten, after 1379 AD. Obv: *MONETA . LVNEBORGh; rampant lion l. Rev: *SIT . LAS [!] . DEO . PATRI; cross with six-rayed star (emblem of the Wendish monetary union) in center. 19mm. Ref: Jesse 367.

    Also, one of your previous Edward III groats is now in my collection, @TheRed. It's a wonderful coin and I like it a lot:
    MA – England, Edward III, AR Groat, London.jpg
    Kingdom of England, Edward III, AR groat, 1361–1369 AD (“treaty period”), London Tower mint. Obv: +EDWARD: DEI: G: REX: ANGL: DNS: hYB: Z: AQT, crowned bust facing within a tressure of arches, fleurs on cusps. Rev: +POSVI x DEVM x ADIVTOREM x MEVM; long cross, three pellets in each angle; CIVITAS LONDON around inner circle. 26mm, 4.30g. Ref: Spink 1616. Ex @TheRed collection; ex AMCC 2, lot 308.
     
  16. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Hear! Hear!
     
  17. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your kind words @Orfew and @+VGO.DVCKS I really can't claim to be an expert though, just a guy that bought lots of reference works and reads them from time to time.

    @Orielensis I really like your witten and the legend error is icing on the cake. I also have to agree with you that many of the engravers were illiterate. How else to explain some of the errors? I would love to get a few coins from the Wendish monetary union, as I recall it was the first monetary union in European history.

    I'm glad the groat has found such a good place in your collection. It was the first treaty period groat I ever purchased and it came with a really good provenance. Back when I bought the groat I really didn't care about that aspect of collecting and lost the old collectors tickets it came with at some point in time. If I ever find them I will send then to you.
     
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