Medieval Monday!

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by FitzNigel, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Edwin, for the enlargement. Without it, I wouldn't have seen more than a fraction of the detail you were talking about. Truly amazing.
    (...And, as you know, the best transition from Robert II to Henry II are the earlier counts of Anjou (direct ancestors of the latter), more contemporaneously to Robert II. Henry had a family tradition to live up to.)
     
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  3. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    Can't really afford buying coins anymore so I just make due with sniping underpriced and unlikely offers. This is one of them -- a mezzo denaro minted at Messina for Frederick II as Holy Roman Emperor in 1245:

    1788354_1616948588.jpg

    The denari were rather worthless by themselves, but the halves were worth half that.
     
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  4. Nap

    Nap Well-Known Member

    Most recent acquisition, arrived today!

    celtic-cross-1.jpg

    Anglo-Saxon "eclectic" sceat
    Early 8th century
    Celtic cross type
    O: Abstract "quilled" bust with central cross
    R: Celtic cross
    S.822
    Abr 31-10
     
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  5. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Thanks, @seth77, for starting this up again, and sorry about your present circumstances. It's like, been there, done that, got the jersey and the limited-edition coffee cup. To mix cliche, my two cents, for what they're worth.
    This is a new one, a denar of Heinrich II (German king /emperor 1002-1024) of Deventer, in Frisia. (Yes, it's not here yet, and I'm using the dealer's pics. Better than I could do, anyway.) HEINRICH II, HAND TYPE, DEVENTER, OBV..jpg
    HEINRICH II, HAND TYPE, DEVENTER, REV..jpg
    ...Dannenberg 563. What follows includes the best rendering of the legends I've seen online.
    Obv. King's hand, in a beaded sleeve. In field (right to left: RE / X.
    HEINRIC [...] IMP [....].
    Rev. [ostensibly; seeing it in hand will help:] DAVANTRIA.
    Compare this to the Second Hand Type pennies of AEthelred II, c. 985-991. --Not Mine!!! This is from a Kunker auction of 2008, accessed via ACsearch.
    COINS, ENGLAND, AETHELRED II, 2ND HAND TYPE, FROM ACSEARCH, KUNKER 2008, PIC ONLY.jpg
    Several things are cool about this. The convergence of a royal German imitation of AEthelred II (evoking 11th-c. Scandinavian imitations of the Long Cross type), from Frisia (vaguely corresponding to the Netherlands), with Scandinavian 'peck marks,' eloquently confirms the commercial relations between the later Vikings and the German polity. This in turn evokes a milieu in which the latter were taking Danegeld on one side of the channel, and using it, by more consistently peaceful means, on the other.
    Another cool thing is the way in which AEthelred's prototype, with the Hand of God descending from clouds, and the Alpha and Omega in the fields, is replaced by the royal, sleeved hand, with 'REX' in the fields. This strikes me as almost ironic, since the earlier Salian kings and emperors, prominently including Heinrich II, were conspicuous patrons of the clerical authorities. (Somebody here posted a thread on this a few years ago, which persistently resists finding. --If you're out there, a link would be cordially welcome!)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  6. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Oh, Dang, @Nap, that's Brilliant!!! I have to love the combination of the very Germanic obverse motif with the relatively Latinate reverse, replete with traces of legend.
     
  7. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Here is another one of my ugly Normans. I think this is a fairly rare variety, but it is in such poor shape that it is hard to tell for certain:
    Med-05a-FNor-1075-William II-D-XX-24.jpg Feudal France - Normandy
    William II-William Clito/Henry I, r. 1035-1135 (1075-1130)
    AR Denier, 16.62 mm x 0.6 grams
    Obv.: +NORMAN DVX. Cross pattee with pellets in angles
    Rev.: ROT’VM[AG?], around circle and V
    Ref.: Dumas XX-24
    Note: Dumas group C et D according to Moesgaard
     
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  8. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    @FitzNigel, it's like, after the 10th century, they're All ugly Normans! Liking your citation of Moesgaard.
     
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  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..o wow!..kool coin dude! :)..i've been studying up on Frederick lll HRE these last days...i'll have a coin to show perhaps by next monday...:)
     
  10. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Gotta keep this going! I’ve always liked this coin, as it copies the English short cross coinage. So many of these found their way into Her,any due to paying King Richard’s ransom that there were several places which copied its style:
    Med-02-GOsn-1236-Konrad I-Pf-1837v.jpg HRE - Osnabrück
    Bishop Konrad I von Velber, r. 1227-1239 (1236-39)
    AR Pfenning, 17.71 mm x 1 gram
    Obv.: SANCT' PE[T']. Head of St. Peter facing holding key
    Rev.: +CON[RAD]VS EPC'. Voided short cross with quatrefoil in each angle
    Ref.: De Wit 1837 variety, (Kennepohl 51)
    Note: Imitation of Short Cross Sterling. Supposedly of Henry III
     
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  11. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    It's that time again!
    This is a penny of Henry III that I picked up from CNG a while ago. In the auction it was listed as a penny from the London mint and so went overlooked. While somewhat off the flan, the reverse legend reads GEF/ERI/ONO/XON. So this is a class 3 penny from Oxford! It's always nice to get a penny from one the of the provincial mints at a London mint price.
    4290417.jpg
     
  12. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Here's one of Bernold, Bishop of Utrecht 1027-1056, issued in Groningen. A little different for how the crozier ('BACV /LVS') is actually labelled in the field.
    COINS, GERMANY, FRISIA, GRONINGEN, BERNOLD BP. OF UTRECHT, CROZIER, OBV..jpg
    COINS, GERMANY, FRISIA, GRONINGEN, BERNOLD BP. OF UTRECHT, CROZIER, REV..jpg
     
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  13. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ...by all means sir! :) 12 noon.jpg
     
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  14. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    This is something new for me, venturing into @FitzNigel 's territory:

    norman.jpg
    Anonymous during the reign of Guillaume dit "Le Batard/Le Conquerant (1035-1087)
    - AE21x18mm, 0.76g, billon denier au trois frontons pointes, ca. 470/1000, Rouen or Bayeux(?) mints, ca. 1060s-1070s(?)
    - ROTOMAGVS(?) or similar degeneree legend; cross with croisettes in first and fourth quarters and besants in 2nd and 3rd quarters
    - Three triangular building frontons with besants in the middle arranged in the shape of a large triangle with besants and lettering around; croisette in the middle(?)
    - cf. Boudeau 8, Poey d'Avant #149 Pl. V 14; Dumas pl. XIX 6

    Notes: By the third quarter of the 11th century the coinage of Normandy was fully degenerated -- the legends were the first to lose their regular shape and meaning, then the devices became abstract images hinting to the architectural types of the 10th century, which in turn were themselves imitated from the Carolingian "temple" types. The weight of the specimens in this phase is also low, to around an average of 0.72g, struck on squarish and irregular flans.

    Dumas dates the types to which this specimen pertains to around 1060-1075 (in Group B/C) and the metalurgical analysis mentioned by her (p.103, 119 Les Monnaies Normandes, RN 1979) indicates a title of around 470/1000. These coinages could be the back end of the "moneta nova" of the 11th century, mentioned by the Abbot of Fecamp (L. Musset - Sur les mutations de la monnaie ducale normande au XIe siecle. Deux documents inedits, R.N. 1969 p. 291-3) in a text dated from ca. 1028 to 1066.

    This specimen seems to be following a type introduced in Group B (on full flan, from perhaps 1035-1050 as seen here), but at a later and more degenerated phase, dating possibly from the later 1060s to around the time of the Norman invasion of England and after.

    Seems to be a scarce type, confirmed by both Poey d'Avant (1 specimen) and Dumas ( 44specs: 1spec Chateuneuf-sur-Cher p. 118, 3specs Sombor (Hungary) p. 122, 1spec var. Winchester p. 123, 36specs Aversa (Italy) p. 124, 1spec Roma-San Pietro (Italy) p. 125, 1spec Rouen-Abbaye de Saint Lo p. 126, 1 spec "Avant 1909" p. 132) -- while Lafaurie in Tresor de deniers du XI siecle trouve a Gaillefontaine (Seine-Maritime), Annales de Normandie 1980 pp. 117-129 counts 60specs of the earlier Dumas Group B type "au trois frontons" - the most numerous type of the hoard (p.121), dating them to the beginning of the rule of Guillaume or a bit earlier (to 1025/35). The continuation of degenerated types -- represented by the specimen in question here -- to the 1070s and the multitude of types minted during this period could indicate minting at both Rouen and Bayeux(?) during the period 1035-1100 (Dumas, Pilet-Lemiere - La monnaie normande Xe-XIe siecle. Le point de la recherche en 1987, Actes du deuxième congrès international d'archéologie médiévale (Caen, 2-4 octobre 1987) Caen : Société d'Archéologie Médiévale, 1989. pp. 125-131, p. 128).

    Other specimens: sold by iNumis, offered by Jean Elsen, two other specs for sale here and here and on ebay.

    As this is my first direct interest into Norman coinage from Normandy proper, I might be wrong in my attribution.
     
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  15. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Looks good to me @seth77! What reference is ‘Boudeau’ by chance? I’ll pile on with another ugly Norman:
    Med-05a-FNor-1075-William II-D-XX-19.jpg Feudal France - Normandy
    William II-William Clito/Henry I, r. 1035-1135 (1075-1130)
    AR Denier, 16.70 mm x 0.5 grams
    Obv.: +NORMAN DVX. Cross pattee with pellets in angles
    Rev.: Cross around oval, crosslets on each arm, two pellets within
    Ref.: Dumas XX-19
    Note: Dumas group C et D according to Moesgaard
     
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  16. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

  17. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    One caveat about Boudeau is that, while more comprehensive than the first two volumes of Duplessy (...so far), in terms of the geographic range, it goes back to 1913. Boudeau is sort of a compromise between the benignly obsessive detail --and impressive methodological sophistication, for the 1860's-- of Poey d'Avant, and the current state of the research, as reflected in Duplessy. Sadly, Duplessy (like Boudeau --and Poey d'Avant, despite his best efforts) is less than comprehensive about 11th -early 12th c. Norman issues. Regarding any given reference, the types are as near-chaotically diverse as the execution is record-breakingly crude.
    ...Wish I had pics of any of mine. Chronologicaly, they range from temp. Richard II /Robert I (father of William I) to Henry I, more or less spanning the chronological range of the subseries.
     
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  18. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Thanks guys - I hadn’t stumbled upon this one before
     
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  19. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    It's a reference still used in France but it's use is very limited. The coins described and sometimes drawn have close to no notes or context. I suppose the primary use for such a catalog was for the prices coins got at auctions in the 19th century.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  20. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    You could draw parallels between Boudeau and Duplessy for French feudal, and Spink and North for English hammered. Boudeau's emphasis was decidedly commercial. But even he --surprisingly, and impressively enough-- occasionally cites hoard evidence, as in issues of the Comte de Provence.
     
  21. malinkyhoy

    malinkyhoy Member

    Hello! I'm new here and joined to discuss imitation coins, largely because I think I recently purchased one. I was unable to ID the coin and after asking a few experts (one of whom had already seen photos of the coin from the person who sold it to me) who also couldn't ID it, I decided to return it. I'm still interested in any thoughts you guys have to offer. I'm wondering if I was on the right track, as I bought the coin thinking it was an imitation of a Henry 1st penny. I've posted photos of the coin I bought for reference. I've added a photo of the coin that I think it is an imitation of that I grabbed from Google.
     

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