Interesting IHP

I found/bought an interesting Indian Head Penny (cent) on eBay tonight. I'm an IHP novice...plus I don't have any of my books with me, so I was hoping the kind folks of CT could help me better understand this coin.

1. Any thoughts on grade?
2. What do you think is going on with [UNITED STAT]ES?
3. Is this a repunched date? If so, is there an FS attribution?

Thanks! ...Tom.

 

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I have bought a lot of coins from this seller, and most have been great, but he has some cleaned coins or problem coins at times. This one has no obvious luster, but the photo could be hiding it? I would pass.

 

I seem to remember that they changed the composition of the IHC from copper nickle to the standard penny composition in 1864 because of issues with die wear and poor strikes, perhaps you have one of the copper nickle alloys that helped them to change the composition.

 

So far, all the coins I've gotten from Great Southern have exceeded expectations (knock on wood). For instance, I've purchased many MS63-MS65 Liberty Nickels from them. The pictures almost never show any luster, but the coins I receive are very natural and lusterous. I've often thought they could make more money if they took better pictures.

I already bought this coin...I was wondering if there were any IHP experts out there that could help with a Stanton-Fivaz attribution. It appears to be an repunched date (RPD). It also looks like it could have been a grease filled die obscurring the letters in [UNITED STAT]ES...but I don't know if they greased the dies in 1864.

 

Interesting...I was thinking this one was bronze due to the rounded bust, but you think it's Copper-Nickel? I can't really tell the true color from this picture.

 

If you want to find out what GSC sells, look at this thread;
http://www.cointalk.com/t74795-3/#post715237

He bought that coin from GSC as a "CHOICE FINE ", but it graded G6 from PCGS.

My guess for the coin is AU cleaned. The "UNITED STATES" WAS LIKELY GREASE FILLED.

 

Thanks! What do you think about the date?

 

Photos are rather small to verify any variety of date. I can't remember seeing a more pock marked cheek. Look at that carefully if you buy it. Suspect altered surfaces as you do. JMO.

Jim

 

Thanks Jim...I already bought it. I've had good luck with this seller in the past. The coins are generally much nicer in hand...not sure if that will be the case here (we'll see).

I violated my First Rule of eBay..."never bid on something I don't understand". In this case, I thought the coin was interesting so I took a chance.

I like the "filled Die" in [UNITED STAT]ES...but I mostly liked the date! It looks to be a significant RPD. Unfortunately, I'm on travel until next Thursday and don't have access to any reference material.

I was hoping someone might have a CherryPickers handy or there might be an IHP expert online who's familiar with 1864 RPDs.

 

I'm not sure I understand how a dip would have that effect on the letters...especially how ST[A]TES is filled in, but I've never dipped a coin so I'll take your word for it.

Do you have any thoughts about the date? ...RPD? I think the lower half the the "8" looks interesting.

 

From the image, I can't match it to anything in CPG or Snow.
It sure looks like the 4 is repunched.

 

I would be extremely wary of buying uncertified coins from that seller. That is based on what I have read from others who have purchased from them, as well as numerous images I have seen. The images appear to be presented in such a way as to mask/hide flaws and often show what look like cleaning and/or artificial color.

The 1864 cent in this thread looks as if it has been dipped or lightly cleaned and now has questionable color.

 

I will have to agree with Mark. The coin looks played with to me. It almost looks too good to be true, which makes me believe that it is.

 

I value everyone's opinion...and especially Mark's. I'll ask my local Numismatist, Richard Stelfox, to offer a "coin in hand" opinion. I'll return it if it doesn't check out (Great Southern is very good about returns).

If it passes muster with Righard, I'll send it to NGC for grading and post the serial number so we can all see NGC's picture after it's slabbed. Should be an interesting experiment.

Btw, in another thread, Doug and I were going around about Milk Spots. I had an OBW roll of 1960P Franklin halves that were badly spotted, but I was able to restore them. I sent one of the coins to NGC for grading and it came back MS65.

Doug points out that these were likely not what are commonly known as Milk Spots. Gainesville coins has some Milk Spotted ASEs they're sending me. I'll redo this experiment with the coins they send and post the results.

 

Best of luck and I'll look forward to your update(s).

 

Update

I recieve the IHC last week, but Richard hasn't been available to offer a second opinion. Here's mine...

Positive: The color of the coin looks nice in hand. There is a slight, even tone and some mint luster underneath. The coin is a Snow-2 variety combined with a "filled die" error...interesting to me.

Negative: There are distracting scratches on the cheek. I would grade the coin MS61. The coin is a far cry from the MS64 (near-Gem) as described in the auction.

I'll keep the coin due to its unique features. I clearly overpaid for it, though. I've gotten some pretty good deals from this seller in the past so won't worry about it too much. I'll certainly let them know about it and be more careful in the future...

"Past history is no guarantee of future performance."

Thanks to everyone for your input! :bow:



Mark, Gainesville coins wrote me back and said they were all out of "Milk Spot" coins. I've contacted a number of folks in the past couple of months looking for Milk Spot ASEs...as soon as I show an interest, they act like Milk Spots are some sort of rare mint error and want to charge a premium...(idiots!).

 

Hah! Un-be-lievable... or maybe, how typical of a reaction! They sure had no trouble sending me a few NGC MS69 graded milk spot ASEs earlier in the year and didn't ask a single question when I sent them back for a refund. I was looking forward to your ASE milk spot experiment and recall your previous discussion with Doug. I hope you can get hold of some and start a thread on the test some day. :thumb:

 

So was it CuNi or bronze? From the left side weakness I was thinking CuNi. (The rounded bust comes on both.)