Counterfeit or real?

Many of the fakes are made with alloys that aren't close to the .900 purity. I have somewhere a counterfeit Trade Dollar that looks very real and was proven fake with a very easy test.. A senior member of the local coin club showed me a trick where you balance the coin on the tip of your finger and gently tap the edge with another coin. If the alloy is proper there will be a pleasing pinggggg. If not there will be a dull sounding tone. Try this with a 1964 Kennedy Half that is 90% silver, then a 40% and a clad to get the idea of what real silver sounds like. This simple test doesn't prove every coin to be real but it can eliminate some fakes.

 

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Also, the position of the period/dot after "DOLLAR" is incorrect. Not too keen on the lack of definition of the olives, but that could be wear.

On the obverse, the pattern of the water(?) to Liberty's left does does not match up to the '73 on PCGS as well.

 

Counterfeit. For those who are able, do a forensic diagnostic analysis of the die characteristics of a genuine 1873 Trade Dollar (circulation strike or Proof). I don't have the coin in hand but if I did, When I am asked by authorities to determine if a particular coin is genuine or counterfeit I use many methods. Is it silver and the correct composition (use XRF analysis)? Is the weight correct within tolerance (use precision scale reading hundredths or thousandths)? Is the diameter correct (use digital electronic caliper)? Now is it comparable to know genuine die characteristics? The OP's coin is NOT. All know dies have the arrow point between the 2 and 0. Is the lettering font correct for all known genuine dies? I won't go further because we don't want counterfeiters to know what we look for to determine their errors. They are getting better but still not perfect. There are many counterfeit experts on CoinTalk and we can all learn from their observations and the techniques they use to determine authenticity. But remember nobody is perfect. Ask PCGS about the micro o silver dollars of 1896, 1900 or 1902. Buy the book before you buy the coin. There are good books about counterfeit detection. Read at least one to become familiar and enjoy the coin collecting hobby.

 

this thread on here is helpful also, again I have to thank @ksparrow for this!
Awesome.https://www.cointalk.com/threads/how-do-you-spot-fake-trade-dollars-anyway.63695/

 

Maybe it's because yours is an S mint, but the image I used to check the reverse is from USA coinbook and it would lead me to believe yours is the fake. I'm guessing the San Francisco coins were a little different, though.

 

There's a type 1 used in 1873 and 1874, and a type 2 used from 1875 onward in combination with the Type 1 pairings. I know this much.

Look I seriously think this S reverse picture earlier in this thread corrupted objectivity and has biased many's opinions on it. That reverse of the S mint coin is NOT a type 1.

I'm not going to give my opinion because I'm far from an expert on this subject, but comparing an apple to an orange is bad practice to authenticate anything.

Much of what you say is accurate and good practice, but on this coin, you are using a type 2 reverse and not the type 1 which is standard and the only reverse used in 1873 and this is what I find fault with in your message. all known 1873 dies have the arrow between the 2 and the zero, and so does the OPs coin. the liberty ribbon tips also point left on type 1 obverse, so does the OPs coin.

there is a weak spot in the denticles between 12 and 1, but other than that I see no fault there either. There is some slight spacing issues I have to some devices, but I can't write that off as counterfeit either, when it could be die wear and circulation wear as to how it manifested.

I'm still not making a judgement on whether it's real or counterfeit, these pictures are too small to make this judgement in my opinion, but from what I have seen of the obverse, reverse, and coin edge now, there is nothing that's blatantly screaming counterfeit at me.

 

If the image I posted is fake, that would be really really bad news. The image I posted is directly from PCGS.

 

Gotta agree, too cartoonish looking to be real, especially the olive branch and everything around her and under her. That's my guess, here's a couple of pics of mine, not great pics but it may help!

 

With all of the "good" counterfeit Trade dollars out there, I wouldn't buy one unless it was in a slab from one of the big three.
If the price is really low, pass. If the price is high, tell seller to have it verified and slabbed and you'll pay if it is real. If not, they are stuck with the fake.

 

Have read/compared all so far. The one thing I agree with is that there are/can be ever-slight differences with details (you know...that the devil is in. I think it's genuine.

 

The weak dentils on the rev. bother me some, but this is not uncommon due to misaligned dies. The coin has the correct type 1 obv and rev. The edge reeding actually looks good from what I can tell. I would have to see this one up close to decide if it's real or not. I can't tell from the photos. Some of the lettering along the bottom of the rev. looks off. A larger, sharp rev photo would help. For comparison I'll post my AU58 73-P.

 

and another genuine one, although not a stellar example:

 

All known 1873 dies have the arrow point between the 2 and 0 ( type 1 reverse) as I mentioned. The OP's coin is correct for this characteristic. Most know deceptive counterfeits are die struck from transfer dies or well made dies by an engraver. They too, have the arrows in the correct position or as correct as possible. Then one must study the lettering and lettering font. The OP's coin has suspicious looking A's in TRADE DOLLAR. This could be caused by PMD. The T's appear to have a shallow or missing left flare. This could also be caused by PMD. The E's are all suspicious along with the F. They are broken or missing or nearly missing connecting bars. This could be caused by die wear or PMD. The sprig in the right hand appears to be shallow where the leaves attach to the stem. This could be caused by die wear or PMD. Again it is important to have the coin in hand to correctly diagnose the characteristics. There appears to be a few raised dots on the obverse above the knee when you enlarge the photo. I count ten or more. When determining the authenticity of a coin it is not just one or two characteristics you check for but many. As I mentioned, weight, diameter, metal content, known die characteristics and even known counterfeits. Of the 396,635 or so Trade Dollars minted in 1873 in Philadelphia it is important to know the die marriages and their characteristics. Is there a genuine die that contains all of the above issues? Or is this a counterfeit?

 

I'll try to get weight and measurement tomorrow, thanks everyone for your valued opinions.

 

Honestly the coin looks genuine to me, but it looks like its had some light cleaning done to it. I would measure it and weigh it, thats your best bet to determine if its fake or real. Don't forget that trade dollars weigh slightly more then the traditional u.s. dollar, so make sure to remember that.

 

the 1873 P has a rev. die with broken serifs on the E of STATES and F of OF from hub damage. At least 1 obv die and 2 rev dies were used.(old infor. from Bowers' silver dollar tome) My beat up example above shows the S in TRUST in similar position to the OP's coin.
Bear in mind that most of the better quality fakes are made from transfer dies that were created using genuine coins.

 

This looks like genuine edge reeding to me.

 

Not a real good scale but says 26.7 and can't find calipers to get a measurement .

 

that's 412 grains, which is a good sign that it's light, and pretty close to tolerance. The denticles still concern me though.

 

Thanks for the weight. Another question? Above the knee and to the right is a dot or raised dot or piece of metal when I enlarge the photo. Can you confirm if that is a raised dot or piece of metal. Also in the field above the dot I count almost 10 other smaller raised dots. Can you confirm that those are raised dots or pieces of metal? All this helps authenticate a coin. Can you take larger clear pictures of the obverse? I just went over a counterfeit Trade Dollar that was 28 grams. Thank You.