How do TPGs find graders?

To me, given the sheer volume of coins being graded (to include not just the grading but also holdering...both of which are suffering from lack of quality/consistency) and at the rates-to-time frame of the entire process involved, the TPG graders, themselves, almost have to be too numerous to be nearly as professional and experienced as we might think/hope. I just think the major TPG services...the big two (maybe three but not four) are going through a general quality-control crisis to include everything from grading to policy and fees/fee structure...if not also a too-much control crisis for the ill of the average collector or "little" guy/gal, not unlike that of the U.S. mint IMO.

 

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I doubt it would be much different (in complexity) than the Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System (IAFIS). I always thought that "SECURE+" was (or could be) the first step in this process.

 

The problem with computer grading is that people DO NOT WANT their coins graded; they want them valued. And value is determined by eye appeal--not just the number of marks on a coin.

 

True...there will always be a man in the loop. However, if 90% of the work could be automated, it may result in a cheaper, more consistent product.

 

IAFIS is a 2 dimensional system and only matches existing entries with new entries... with few if any variables to be accounted for.. a coin grading system would need to be 1000 times as complex just for handleing the 3rd dimension. Also you can have 2 completely different looking dimes... say a shiney one and a patana'd one that get the same grade... the variable determination for that would be pages of code and again would have to be entered seperatly for each and every coin... so no not close.... not close at all...

 

This is what we have happening now... as I said we are decades at minimum from removing that human grader from the loop...

 

I don't know any graders or how it's done. We do something similar with military imagery. If, as you say, the TPGs are doing that already...cool!

 

I know the computers and their abilities... less so about the grading, but I do know that the 1st attempt at computer grading was done by Accugrade (ACS) and it totaly flopped... that was 10+ years ago... I know PCGS has the patent on a computer assisted grading program, but not a whole lot of info about it availble to the public yet... but note the most important words there "computer assisted" a human eye and mind is still needed and will be for a long time still..

 

I rarely get a GTG correctly, when I play it here. LOL.[/QUOTE]
You're hired!

 

JeffC, asked:

1. How do TPGs find experienced graders?

Already answered. Ads, relatives of coin dealers, and word of mouth recommendations. YN's attending the ANA Summer Seminars make good candidates. Experienced is the key. Some experienced folks like the comfort of a steady paycheck w/o worry rather than going into business.

2. Do they have apprenticeship programs that foster and develop the necessary skills, and then promote from within?

Many graders start as apprentices.

3. If my premise about graders being older in age is correct, are the TPGs struggling to find well qualified replacements?

Age is a factor. The older folks have long-time experience that cannot be replaced. The new hires are sharp and quick learners. I've never heard of any TPGS having trouble finding graders. ICG has a file of applications. Several I would hire in a minute if we did the volume of NGC/PCGS.

4. Generally, are numismatic professionals dwindling in number and thus becoming a supply issue for the TPGs?

There is a dwindling number of old timers. IMO, their knowledge cannot be 100% replaced/duplicated; however, a great teacher is one who succeeds in having a student surpass them in knowledge.

 

Insider, what role in the next few years do you see with the combination of Hi-Def picture analysis, AI, and scanning ?

Could modern technology soon be used to supplement or check on the work of graders such as yourself ? Has it been talked about at your firm or among the other TPGs ?

 

Actually, in addition to TPGS finalizers, you and the rest of the dealers and collectors in the world check the graders.

I have never talked about the subject or heard it talked about except when my boss was a consultant for Compugrade decades ago. I laugh at such nonsense. The only use I get out of modern advancements is the ability to use a computer on the Internet to see high quality auction images and to ID foreign coins & tokens. I cannot find words to express the importance of these "modern" tools compared to the "old days."

 

When do you think coin grading if ever will go completely virtual possibly.

 

NEVER without a big "scam." Look, grading is an art.

That means professionals - grader/dealer/collector can fudge any time for any reason. An 1884-S dollar is GRADED DIFFERENTLY. An 1804 dollar is graded differently. Even common coins are graded differently because of all the factors involved including a person's experience and allowing for the degree of all the different factors making up a grade. How much friction wear is too much on a MS graded coin? How much improper cleaning? Ever hear of "Market Acceptability?" How does the STUPID, FOLLY of net grading fit in?

The ONLY WAY (it can be started today!) a coin's grade can be set forever is to professionally grade it and then IMAGE IT and seal it by ONE single entity. Let's say one of the four current major services grades a coin. Then an entity such as CAC approves the grade. Then CAC Prime agrees and images the coin. It will remain that grade forever if it stays in that condition. If it is ever cracked, the computer image will catch it. That equals UNIVERSAL computer grading for those specimens. Rare coins will not go from XF to MS in a matter of decades. The grade will remain constant and ONLY THEIR VALUE will change.

However, any TPGS can start this sort of human-assisted computer grading today! Grade the coin, image it, and slab it. Then any PCGS coin would stay the same any time it was sent in raw. Any NGC coin done this way would also stay the same. Gradeflation would be ended. The standards of today would prevail. Now I ask you, WHY in the heck would any TPGS want to do this? Do you think they really care about us?

Bottom line: Learn how the TPGS grade and then USING YOUR PERSONAL "EDUCATED/INFORMED" opinion, collect what you like.

 

Ok thanks for the information I would rather it stay the way its been for like the past 50 years also it seems you got very emotional just wondering i don't want it to get like that.

 

Maybe this whole grading standards have changed thing is like the economy -- it never grows 2-3% a year in a straight line, there are booms and busts.

With coin grading, you have a confluence of factors that lead to periods of "easy" and "tight" grading.

Maybe that's it. We are dealing with the human condition, remember !

Do you know where those articles are that Insider wrote ?

Also, if the AU-58's of yesterday were the MS-61's or 60's of today, that is understandable (not saying I agree with it, but I get the whole "slider" thing). But those AU-58's should NOT be MS-62 or MS-63 or God Forbid, higher.

Speaking of 2004 ("...3 years by 2007").....did you and others like Insider all of a sudden see coins change that quickly in 2004 ? Was it all of a sudden ? I am somewhat surprised that 2004 was when this all happened....I would have thought it would have happened after one of the Coin Bubbles or a surge of TPG activity which required new hires who were less-experienced.

 

The internet was well-formed by then, though social media was not. So I am somewhat surprised that you would see this big grading change at that time.

You would think the TPGs might try and pass something like that off in the 1980's or 1990's pre-internet when it is easier to "sneak by" the masses (if not the experts like yourself and Insider).

We really need to hear from a spokesman or grader from the TPG at a big coin convention (like FUN) and explain their approach to grading standards, and market vs. technical grading.

My own opinion is that the TPGs felt "squeezed" between the ANA grading standards, dealer community, professional coin collectors, etc. And at various points in time, they "change" to suit one or the other constituency.

JMHO.