Howdy folks, Spent some time today delving into VAMs for my 2x 1880-S Morgan dollars. I believe I've locked down the first one as VAM-70 -- based on the die scratch on the reverse, through the feathers. However, I'm not 100% convinced on the obverse date doubling. Any VAM experts notice anything in the image (max TrueView size) which confirms VAM-70 or points to a different VAM? I thought maybe there was some pitting similar to VAM-88; however, I'm not sure that one has the same die scratch mine has. Edit- for those curious, this is PCGS MS62PL
best place to look before messydesk or morgandude show up http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.c...tribution_Guides_for_The_1880-S_Morgan_Dollar
That reverse and scratch are shared with like 10 or 11 other VAMs including VAM88. Its Reverse C3b. I think it's VAM88 the obverse from what I can see from these pictures doesn't look like VAM 70 obverse at all. If you can get a zoom of the date I could be more sure but looks like VAM88 to me. I should also qualify this with "not a VAM expert", more of a VAM enthusiast.
Yes, a close up of the date would be helpful and of the neck area that is noted (VAM-70)to have die polishing lines.
The reverse is definitely the VAM 70 reverse. The note on VW about sharing the reverse with a litany of others is very misleading. The C3b reverse means it's a "Normal die of C3 type with very large centered and upright VI S mint mark." It doesn't mean there aren't other dies that fit this description, so that list of VAMs doesn't necessarily represent one die. It's between 1 and 10 in this case. I edited that page and the VAM 88 page to word it better, but there are hundreds of other pages with similar statements. On the obverse, it probably does represent a single die, because the doubling of the date is pretty unique. The nomenclature gets tricky when not all dates have been described and studied to the point of identifying every specific die. Anyway, a close-up of the date would make it fairly easy to confirm which VAM this is. Doubling on the 18 and the 0 go far to determining this. The second 8 is always doubled on the bottom left outside of the upper loop. If it is not VAM 70, then I'll add a note that VAM 70 and VAM whatever this is share a reverse die.
Yup - this is where I spent a few hours exploring This is a bit misleading; @messydesk explains why in following post: @messydesk, appreciate you clearing this up! The way the site had it worded, it certainly was a bit confusing; and I, like @John Burgess, thought that many other VAMs would have this exact C3b reverse. On some of the VAM pages, you're able to sort/search by a specific reverse (for example, find all VAMs which have specific reverse C3b, with the specific die scratch), but I imagine here this list isn't complete yet because the die study isn't complete. Here is zoomed in date area: And here is zoomed in polishing marks under Liberty's chin:
The person that attempts the die study on this issue will need to borrow a lot of coins and devote even more time to accomplish this task.
And it'll be a frustrating task. Much of the doubling on the dates of 80-S is on the surface of the first 8, which is vulnerable to bag marks and ejection doubling, both of which happen a lot. 81-S is even worse when it comes to ejection doubling. The coin in question doesn't look like a match for VAM 70 from here. I don't see the notch on the top left of the base of the 1, and I don't see the strong doubling on the surface of the 8 -- or maybe I just can't see it. Seems like there's another obverse paired with this exact reverse die. This is where I turn to things like die polishing lines. Once I'm close, a fingerprint like a polishing line, assuming it's documented, will easily confirm or refute an attribution. On the obverse, LIBERTY and the space around the cotton bolls are good places for these. On the reverse, the inside of the bow and the wing-neck gap behind the eagle's head are good. Efforts to do die studies always include such markers, as they are very effective fingerprints and often are visible in low grades.
I don't think it's a VAM-70. Missing the polish marks on the neck. The first star on the left looks doubled but not finding any VAM for that. Call me puzzled. Thanks for sharing.
