when i usually look at early american coppers on ebay i see a fair amount which are "porous" but otherwise have alot of detail. my 3 questions were if anyone knows what could cause this? does it really devalue the coin? does it add to the possibility that a coin is genuine?
Usually, it's corrosion caused by exposure to water over time. Many of these coins were found in the ground, others in "less than ideal" storage conditions. Sometimes, these coins show planchet porosity which is "as struck", but the vast majority of porous coins on e-bay are corroded. Sometimes, if the damage is less extensive, TPGs use the term "environmental damage" instead of corroded. In my mind, it is what is, regardless of their terminology. Absolutely. It devalues the coin a great deal, sometimes as much as 75% drop or more depending on the coin. In general, early American coppers are valued more for solid, hard, problem-free surfaces than for detail. Note that any imperfections which were "as made" deduct much less value. For instance, planchet imperfections, laminations, or clips have less impact on value. Not necessarily. The coin should be evaluated on its own merits. That said, most counterfeits don't show corrosion.
Take a close look at this coin : http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=460&Lot_No=2000 Try not to drool ! That coin has light porosity which was part of the planchet before it was struck. There were gas bubbles in the strip from which the planchet was punched. This planchet porosity is most visible in the field behind Liberty's head. It looks like super-small Swiss cheese pores (or Havarti !) Compare that to corrosion porosity.
IMO it beats having a damaged or AG-G coin when it comes to early pieces. i recently bought one and will have to take some pictures of it. i saw your post about shawn yancey's coins but dont really have that kind of dough to put down on A coin.
I disagree - while not knocking the higher detailed coin, to me nothing beats a solid problem free large cent in any grade. In my opinion. In reality if you collect by variety in some cases you might have to go with a coin that has problems. You have to keep in mind Shawn knows what he has, as with most early copper sellers - they know the varieties they have. And there are plenty of early copper sellers where you can shop around to find what you want. Plus keep an eye out for Shawns auction - I think I stole a coin off one of those. To the original poster I have come to the conclusion ebay is the worst place to get large cents. Most have problems in some way and the cost of the coin is not in line with the issues the coin has. In some cases if you just take the time you can find a problem free coin at the same price and maybe in the same grade.
for some reason ive gotten the opposite opinion when looking at most local coin dealers large cents. usually in numismatic shops they want top $ for a worn out coin while ebay (even if it has alot of problem coins) youre still allowed to bid as high as you think its worth which is probably not some book value.
Early American Copper is the toughest area of the American series. Very little good copper at most shows. Even beat-down copper can be very expensive. It's tricky to grade accurately. Know what you're doing before laying down any sizable cash ! I know of no place else so challenging - and so rewarding - in American numismatics. I strongly encourage membership in the Early American Coppers club, even for newbies : http://eacs.org/ If there is any way you can make it to the EAC National Convention in Annapolis MD April 2010, go go go !!! I'll be there fo sho. It will blow your mind.
And that's totally cool. I wouldn't dream of spending big money on copper at this stage. But do contact Shawn if you like and ask questions. Coin People are super cool in general, and copper peeps more than most. Very enthusiastic and quick to help. Stay in touch, Lugia ! Stay on the board and ask questions ! Post up your new coin. Also, don't be shy about posting up an e-bay coin you're considering... we'll be glad to give constructive commentary.
For my 2 CENTS I'd like to throw in an agreement with what is on ebay should stay on ebay. And back to your coin problems. Although the Mint publishes statistics on the makeup of their coinage, I usually don't think thier quality control is what they or anyone says. And as you go farther back, I really suspect the materials used in coins was really more of a guesstamation, than a purity test. An example is the so called War Time Bronze shell casings used to make pennies (cents). Just who inspected that material for purity? I don't think anyone really did. And as you go way, way back, again the purity of the coin material just was not big thing. I too have seen many large cents with numerous pittings that is not hardly ever noticed in later Copper coinage. Very possibly the materials used might have been more suseptable to corrosion. And as to value. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Most individuals that collect coins prefer problem free coins. However, there are many, many collectors that full well know about mintage quantities and are well happy with whatever they can find. As to a coin being genuine or not. I would think a counterfeiter would never produce any coin with pits, scratches, dents, etc. Now that would really be something for someone to do making horrible looking coins. HMMM, might be something to look into. Of course after seeing those refurbished 1943 Lincoln Cents I sometime really wonder about people. A coin that sells for about a quarter being redone to sell for a quarter or possibly 30 cents. ?????????
ty for your inputs. i will probably never get to that coin show seeing how i barely get out of this state. im just not a traveling kind of guy. as for ebay ive bought many other things from there before coins and havent had any serious problems. when i get the coin i bought recently ill post it along with one i got about a month ago. theyre 1803 and 1805 draped bust. im still trying to figure out all the different sheldons but ill get there.
Do you have a book ? Essential. Indespensible. Personally, I prefer Breen's book of large cents 1793 - 1814 (so-called "early dates").
I'm sure that's true. Relatively speaking, it was primitive conditions. 18th century / early 19th century metallurgy. The Mint had to make do with what they had. It's widely accepted that the Mint was melting down all sorts of scrap copper, loaded with impurities.
What it all boils down to is comparison shopping and knowing what you are purchasing. There are several large cent dealers I use - plus my local dealer. With the local dealer I am more careful - some are overpriced, some are right and some are cheap. It really depends on the date of the coin, and the condition. I think they do the major varieties, but not all varieties. To me you just have to work at looking to get the coin that you like best. E-bay is just another option. Just, in my own opinion, a problem free ag coin is worth more than a vg corroded or damaged coin(in general) - so on and so fourth. It is all just opinion on what an individual likes and wants.
Another thought... To understand a coin, one must understand all grades of that coin. Low grade, medium, high, and pristine. Even if you can't afford an MS65 large cent, seek one out and study it. That way you learn to appreciate original surfaces. That's a huge, huge deal with early Federal coinage, especially large cents. Early copper has been through a lot in 200 years, and you'll see every type of damage and doctoring under the sun. Learn to recognize each type of deviation. Even if you're shopping only for lower grades, cast your eye on all grades. IN HAND, not just photos. This is why coin shows are so cool.
Only true up through 1797. Then they were buying their planchets ready made from Matthew Boulton in England and those were were being made of virgin copper. (Boulton owned one copper mine and had interests in a couple more.) But copper was difficult to refine and often had trace impurities that greatly affected its appearance and susceptibility to corrosion.
I seem to recall reading accounts of mint officials being sometimes disappointed with Boulton's planchets. Apparently, Boulton sometimes sold the worst, off-spec planchets overseas (i.e. here). Also, it's possible the planchets were exposed to salty sea air, humidity, and maybe even water - apparently, some of the planchets arrived pretty dark (almost black). Isn't true that certain issues after 1797 were made from mint-rolled stock ? I forget the year the mint became more self-supporting planchet wise.
They had much more trouble with the Colton Brothers planchets that they acquired domestically. Usually they were very pleased with the Boulton planchets. There were a few times when they had problems but that was because the kegs of planchets had spent long periods sitting at dockside submerged in the bildgewater in the bottom of the ship. The kegs being very heavy were loaded on boad first and placed down in the bottom of the hold to act as ballast and they would often become submerged in seawater leaking in through the joints. But the ships would not sail until they were fully loaded and often the ship might sit at dockside for months before sailing. Then being at the bottom of the hold they were also the last things unloaded once they arrived. I believe one shipment actually sat in the hold of a ship waiting for something like eight months. I would imagine they were not in the best of shape upon their arrival at the Mint.
