Midas, I see the validity of your population reports but I wonder if it might be 'skewed' by which company the person picks in the first place. If 100 people submitted coins to NGC and only 75 submitted to PCGS, wouldn't the numbers come out approximately as you have indicated. I personally like PCGS because I feel that it is unbiased. I think that NGCs owners (a coin selling company) smacks of prejudice. It may or may not be so, but it is IMHO.
PCGS owner also sells coins...I didn't know NGC owners sell coins....what is the name of their store?? Speedy
Wow! I love this site. I have learned more in the three days I have browsed threads here than I have in two decades of amateur collecting. I was so upset to discover that my office's proxy server blocks this site Anyway, again thanks for the great insights. I hope to become experts like many of you...
If we are going to talk about using facts - there aren't many we can use. In fact there aren't many at all - facts that is. Population reports are pretty much meaningless. That's because they don't take into account re-submissions as has already been mentioned. For those who don't understand what that means - say you submit a coin for grading to PCGS. You think it's a 67 but it comes back a 65. The pop report for that coin and date in 65 is increased by 1 when your coin is graded. But since you disagree you send the coin in again. And because you are worried that coin being in an existing slab will prejudice the graders you crack the coin out first. It's returned to you - again a 65. The pop report goes up by 1. Say you do this 3 times with the same result - all you have done is increase the pop report for that coin & date in 65 by 3 - but you did it with one coin. Now how many times do suppose that happens each and every day ? Trust me it's a lot. And it happens at all of the grading companies. So pop reports equal facts ? Not in my book. Pop reports don't mean anything - at best they only give you general ideas. And at any rate - if you are trying to determine which grading company is more conservative - you need to look at more than 1 grade to determine that now don't you ? After all there are nearly 30 different grades used by the grading companies. Will a comparison of just one of them tell you which one is more conservative ? Again - not in my book. Now realized prices - those are facts. But what do they prove ? All they prove is that somebody is willing to pay more for a coin in this slab than in that slab. Does that prove that one grading company is more conservative than another ? No - it doesn't prove anything except what people are willing to pay. It's doesn't tell you why people are willing to pay more - it just tells you they are. Now let's look at another fact or two. When it comes to grading Franklin half dollars as FBL ( full bell lines ) - PCGS only requires that the bottom row of bell lines be full and unbroken. NGC requires that the upper & lower rows of bell lines be full and unbroken. You decide - which company is more conservative ? When grading Mercury dimes - for a coin to graded FB ( full bands ) PCGS requires that the middle bands be separate and unbroken. NGC requires all 3 rows of bands to separate and unbroken. You decide - which company is more conservative ? There are more that can be listed - but I think you get the idea. In each and every case, NGC requires more than PCGS for the grading designations of other coins similar to those I mentioned above. Those are facts - not assumptions based on this must be so because of that - but facts. But do they answer the question of which company is more conservative ? In my opinion no it does not. It might give you a pretty good idea - but it does not give you a definitive answer. In my opinion there is only one thing that can give you a definitive answer - and it's not me, and it's not somebody else - it's your own eyes. When you have learned to accurately coins grade yourself, and you have looked at enough examples of different denominations graded by ALL of the grading companies - and I mean thousands of each from each - then you can decide. For then you will have the facts. Until then - don't even try.
I have a quick question with how PCGS numbers work. For example, say a coin has a PCGS number 913048.70. I have figured the 913048 number is the number PCGS uses to associate this coin, but is the .70 part the population?
Nope - the numbers are meaningless except as a serial number or to indicate what number that particular coin was in a given submission batch.
GDJMSP, If I'm looking to tpg a couple of World Gold Coins 1700s-1900s, should I consider any of the big three (NGC,PCGS,ANACS) as better graders in this area.
The population report figures I provided were for 70 grades only. This was to answer the above question. I provided BOTH the number of submissions and the total of 70 grades handed out. Using 5th grade math, you can calculate the percentage of 70 grades against their total submissions for the given coin. Speedy....NGC may have more submissions on certain coins, but L@@K at the number of 70 grades to the number of total submissions. This is called a percentage. If you watch baseball, this is how they calculate batting averages. If you get 4 hits at 10 at bats, your batting average is .400 or 40%. So what are the "batting averages" for a submitter obtaining a 70 grade on modern proof coins? Look again... 2000 American Silver Eagle in PR70 grades: PCGS gave out 32 PR70DCAM's out of 5341 submissions. That is just under .6% NGC gave out 268 PR70UltraCams (same as DCAM) out of 3420 submissions. Equals to 7.8%. 1999 Lincoln Proof Cent? PCGS gave out 20 PR70DCAMS out of 2376 submissions. Equal to .8% NGC gave out 253 PR70UCAMS out of 3130 submissions. Equal to 8.0% 1999 Kennedy Halfs from the Silver proof set: PCGS gave out 8 PR70DCAMs out of 2678 submissions. Equals under .3% NGC gave out 83 PR70UCAMs out 1735 submissions. Equals under 4.8% 2005 Bison 5c Proof: PCGS has given out 272 PR70DCAMs out of 8,962 submissions. That's 3.0% NGC has given out 1509 PR70UCAMs out of 12,151 submissions. That's 12.4% I do understand about resubmissions but it is very unlikely that a submitter would keep on submitting a 69 modern coin in hopes of a 70 grade...over and over again. I am positive that if a submitter got a 70 grade, it would be a pleasant surprise as most people that submit moderns wouldn't bet the bank on a 70 grade. I wouldn't and the resubmission costs alone would quickly make any "hope" of a 70 grade be unreasonable. Sure you see this on somebody hoping to go from a Morgan Dollar 64 to 65 grade, but even if the same occurance happens with all of the services as suggested, I like to look at the number of grades to the total of submissions. Again, back to the question on PR70 grades. Do you think that the reason why PCGS PR70 grades sell for more than NGC PR70 grades because the market finds PCGS PR70 coins are graded more conservatively than NGC which appears to hand out more these "70 holy grail" grades than PCGS?? And yes...we know about the Proof Franklin that Speedy paid more than one in the same grade in a PCGS holder...a fine example indeed that a NGC coin sold for more than one in a PCGS holder. I call that an exception. When I look at thousands of completed auctions detailing prices realized from the likes of Heritage, Bowers & Merena, Teletrade, eBay, dollars spent for PCGS graded coins overall (that means there could be exceptions like Speedy's Franklin Half) sell for more than the others, including NGC.
The first part of the number is PCGS's coin identification number followed by the grade after the decimal point. In your case, this would be a 70 grade. The number followed by the forward slash (/) is the coin certification number. Look at here: PCGS Coin Verification LINK
But you must know that more submissions mean more grades...and that would mean more of any grade... The only coins you list are "new" coins...why not coins from the 70's or 80's??.....just a thought... Speedy
That doesn't make any sense. That's trying to figure out a batting average by saying he was up to bat more times than other players...how many times? how many submissions? how many 70 grades compared to the total submission for that coin is what you need to ask...SPECIFICS!! Sure why not...I just picked 3 coins and compared the population reports of both PCGS and NGC for 70 grades against the total number of submissions. 1976-S Silver 25c: PCGS graded 4,702 coins and 5 were awarded 70DCAM...equals to 0.1% NGC graded 1,150 coins and zero were awarded 70UCAM...equals to zero % 1986-S Silver American Eagle (First year of the SAE): PCGS graded 5,596 submissions and 21 were awarded 70DCAM grade...equals 0.37% NGC graded 8,626 submissions and 412 were awarded 70UCAM...equals 4.77% 1986 MS Silver American Eagle in MS Grades: PCGS graded 3,674 submissions with 3 obtaining a MS70 grade...equals .08% NGC graded 32,839 submission with 415 obtaining a MS70 grade...equals 1.26% 1980-S 1c: PCGS graded 1,330 submissions and 16 were awarded 70DCAM...equals 1.20% NGC graded 565 submissions and none were awarded 70UCAM So again, look at the REAL number of "perfect" grades awarded to the total amount of submissions.
I think we've had this arguement before and we came to the same stalemate then as now. Speedy and Midas disagree, it's not the end of the world. I think if we saw all the records then it would become more obvious that each grading company handles each series diferently, so the company that is more conservative with ASE's (PCGS) may not be as conservative with other series. The bottom line is that once you've mastered grading a series then you will recognize when those coins are properly graded and be able to pay the correct price for coins in the series.
That my friend is an understatement! And I'm 100% sure that I'm not going to change his mind...and he isn't going to change mine! Speedy
Midas I gotta ask you - do you only determine which grading company is the most conservative by how many 70 grades they assign ? If ya do, then PCGS is definitely not the most conservative. See how many 70 coins you can find in an ANACS slab. I've never seen a single one - MS or PF.
Hey GDJMSP--I have never seen one either but have heard of 2--both proofs. Speedy OFF TO THE COIN SHOW I'M GOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as I know, ANACS does not publish population reports. They could if they want, otherwise what is the purpose of the number they print on the slab. Without this, we may never know how many of one grade is out there compared to the number of submissions for that coin. If I was submitting my coins, I would have to consider who will grade my coins correctly, and also how their service is received ($$$) in the coin community. Second, I balance the number of submissions compared to the number of high grades which plays a role in who is conservartive and who is not. For instance, if you are foolish enough to submit coins to Star Grading Service, and you see that 99.9% of their submissions end up as MS70 or PR70...one, it is obvious they are not conservative in grading and two, they have no business gradinig, and three, when you dig deeper and find they are owned by a seller who turns around and sells their loose change as "graded" coins, you can easily summize they in fact are a bogus service owned by their eBay powerseller, Aboncom. That is the extreme but it serves a point of looking at the number of 70 grades compared to the published reports of total submissions. When you look at PCGS and NGC population/census reports side by side, you have to wonder why NGC hands out as many as 3, 5, 10, 20 times MORE 70 grades than PCGS. Again...take the number of 70 grades compared to the total of submissions for a given coin. Using Speedy's logic and rational, he argues that NGC must get more of these "perfect" coins than PCGS. Does that argument have any logic? No, but that is how people "that seem to" like to present their facts...on feelings. Three...study how the market is reacting to one service over another. Realized prices from the auction houses provide buyers and sellers with a valuable tool. That is, how much would coin "A" graded by PCGS wiill sell for against coin "A" graded by NGC. All in all, with some exceptions like Speedy's famous PR66 Franklin that he made sure was housed in a NGC slab, PCGS realizes higher prices and nets more after all submission costs pretty much across the board. Exceptions?...sure there are. The rule?...not likely Four...do a personal survey among everybody from your local dealers to those at shows. I am lucky enough to get to attend the F.U.N. show in Florida...which I believe is the largest coin show in the world. They had over 400 tables/dealers last year so I consider it a one of the tops for buying and selling coins. Many dealers pretty much state and agree that PCGS nets more than the other services. Does PCGS or NGC ever make mistakes? Sometimes, but when a seller can pick up the phone and state they have a coin that is graded, the first question a buyer will ask, "By who?" Five...Read and Study the market forces, the company and your ability to look at and grade coins. After all, I can't trust my "feelings" and use that as a rational arguement.
I think they do...in fact I'm sure they do... I went to the show today and was looking at a dealers case when the topic of NGC and PCGS came up...So I waited to see what they had to say....and when they talked about PCGS it was words soo bad I wouldn't even type them...my dad also heard some others talking and they didn't like PCGS either...so I think many of the older collectors agree with me on this...PCGS isn't the best grader around. Speedy
