Cheers folks! You will have to forgive my ignorance... I am new to this site and am restarting my old coin collecting tradition! And I love it, its so relaxing and fulfilling, and I appreciate all the selfless advice given on this site. So I am looking over all these coins I want to buy. Would you suggest PCGS or NGC rating if I am to spend the money to buy PR70DCAM rated coins? Thanks!
First, let's not debate if there is such a thing as a "perfect" coin. If you can't find marks or blemishes under 5 or 7X power (I forgot what is the correct power used for uniform grading purposes), technically you can call the coin "perfect". If want to look at a coin under an electron microscope, yes...you may find an imperfection in one grain structure alignment against the other. But think about it...if you can't see an imperfection, a hairline, a mark, etc., even under 30 power, can't you technically grade the coin perfect? That's a debate for some people here, but let's stick to the thread itself...shall we? ******************************************************** I know for a fact (looking at population reports) that NGC certifies more PR70's (as a percentage) than PCGS. So is PCGS tougher in handing out this "perfect" grade? You make the call... For instance, take a look at the 2000 American Silver Eagle in PR70 grades: PCGS gave out 32 PR70DCAM's out of 5341 submissions. That is just under .6% NGC gave out 268 PR70UltraCams (same as DCAM) out of 3420 submissions. Equals to 7.8%. How about a 1999 Lincoln Proof Cent? PCGS gave out 20 PR70DCAMS out of 2376 submissions. Equal to .8% NGC gave out 253 PR70UCAMS out of 3130 submissions. Equal to 8.0% While we are on 1999, look at Kennedys from the Silver proof set: PCGS gave out 8 PR70DCAMs out of 2678 submissions. Equals under .3% NGC gave out 83 PR70UCAMs out 1735 submissions. Equals under 4.8% I used these three coins because most of these coins that could have been submitted, have been submitted. But then again, maybe 10 to 15 times more 70 coins end up at NGC!?! Who knows? Draw your own conclusions...(I have). Look at the ratio of "perfect" grades to the total amount of submissions. Then look up prices realized for recent completed auctions from Heritage, Teletrade, Bowers & Merena, and others to get a feel for what the coin's market values are.
Hi Midas, I was wondering where you obtain population reports? Those are some good statistics to have.
You can get NGC on line: NGC Census Report LINK PCGS has a report online as well, but I think it is available only to members (Minimum cost is $49/year): PCGS Population Report LINK I was also curious what was happening with the latest 2005 submissions. I looked at population reports for the 2005 Bison Nickel that many people like. Here is what is going on with these proof nickels: 2005 Bison Proof: PCGS has given out 272 PR70DCAMs out of 8,962 submissions. That's 3.0% NGC has given out 1509 PR70UCAMs out of 12,151 submissions. That's 12.4%
I would suggest NGC....I have found that they seem to grade better and that they grade the same and don't change at the drop of a hat...I still don't think there is such a thing as a MS/PF70 even if you can't see anything at 5x... I know Midas and myself don't agree on this and never will.... The only thing I can say is...don't take our word for it...search on this forum for NGC-PCGS and read about them online...and THEN make your pick...its up to you to collect what you like...don't ever let anyone tell you what to collect. Speedy
People laugh at the debates from the Middle Ages over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Are discussions about potential invisible structures on the face of a coin and the resulting impact on the price one should pay for it any different? If you can't see something, should you care. If something is visible only under extreme magnification, does it affect collectibility in any real sense? Sometimes it might be helpful to step back and just admit that a coin is essentially flawless for all practical purposes and let it go at that. To do otherwise would seem to nullify many of the reasons to collect coins in the first place.
First of all...many people do not just collect coins to get THE BEST...so that would not nullify the reason to collect... If you have a PF70 coin...put something over the grade and then try to see how many people will agree...there is always something...the mint doesn't take great care of the coins so it just stands to reason that there would be some mark or something wrong with it...I have seen many PCGS PF70 coins that are soooo funny...its not funny...they are NOT PF70 and I don't think there is such a thing. Now if the grade PF70 meant that there would be about 1 mark...maybe a small hairline..and one other thing...then I would be more likely to go with it but when PF70 means that there is nothing...hogwash. Speedy
its perfect to the grading scale(highest grade possible), not perfect in the actual sense of the word. its just a word to describe a grade. dont take it so litereally
When you can back up your suggestions (to NGC) and your conclusion of "they seem to grade better" with hardcore facts from population reports as I demonstrated, along with prices realized from the numerous acution houses, I will then take a back seat. If you were to present personal feelings and "it 'seems' arguments" in a court room (or this public forum), the gravel couldn't hit the bench fast enough...and the ruling would NOT be in your favor. I brought up Judge Judy before, but your response was that she was not a real judge. So imagine making this case to a real judge and real jury. If you are making a case for NGC, which I do respect as one of the top TPGs, then by all means make it. Otherwise, advice given without cold hard facts is just an opinion...and an opinion is just like an ______. Everybody has one.
I think if you took two coins, that had the same grade, one from PCGS, and one from NGC, PCGS would yield more money, as they seem to grade more conservatively. I'm no expert on grading, just throwing out some observations based on realized auction prices.
skrilla MS70/PF70 stands for... A flawless coin exactly as it was minted, with no trace of wear or injury. Must have full luster and brilliance. Any unusual die or planchet traits must be described--- Contact marks=none show under magnification Hairlines=None show under magnification Luster=Very Attractive fully original Eye appeal= Outstanding Midas As I said...me and you DON'T agree...and nether one of us is going to agree with the other!!! POP's are only showing what they grade the coins--BUT it doesn't say how many times a guy sent back in that coin trying to get the higher grade...if NGC grades the coins PF70 I still don't agree with it but as I said...I think NGC grades consistantly...and I'm not going to change my mind on that....as for prices realized--look at where I paid more for a PF66 NGC Franklin...I paid more than any one had before for that grade and date and mint mark...at least Hearitge says I did....and that was a NGC slab!!! WOW... I think you like the PNG report...when they list NGC and PCGS at the SAME place (I think that happened this year and last if I remember right) I think they are the same...so in that way of looking at it...NGC is the same a PCGS and PCGS is the same as NGC...lets agree to disagree. I think that saying that a judge would go with PCGS and not NGC is crazy...a judge would throw out the case on the basis that it is all opinion and that that it is up to the person to decided what it right...that is the same as me suing someone because I saw they should use Wal-Mart and they say K-Mart...its nuts... There IS NO WRONG WAY TO COLLECT...if the person wants NGC...let them have NGC...if they want PCGS...let them have PCGS...but this is a forum and that is what is sooo good about this topic...I can give my thoughts and reason why I like NGC and you can tell your side...and then the person can decided on what one THEY want. Zaneman That is just it..too many people hear about PCGS...it is talked about everyday and when they see on up for sale (its all a marketing tip) they think it would be SOOOO much better...so they pay more for the SAME coin that is in a NGC holder... Morgan Dollar... Thanks for saying that....but why do you say that...is it because you have heard more about PCGS or because you have heard about PCGS longer than others...or is it because you have taken coins from both Co's. and looked at how they graded them??? ---------------------------------------------------- You see....Most people just hear the name of PCGS so they think its better than others...they don't care about searching about them...or reading about then as I have...and they don't think about talking to older collectors like I have...if you talk to older collectors and you get PCGS slabs AND NGC slabs...I think you will see that NGC grades more consistantly--and I think they are better....IMO.... Speedy
If there is no such thing as a 70 coin, then 69 would be the highest grade, which is not the case. The existence of the grade is evidence that it is attainable. Maybe 71 is perfection at the atomic level, is not attainable, and therefore doesn't exist. It's an interesting discussion, but probably useless and immaterial. In the meantime, choosing between PCGS and NGC is an exercise in predicting which grading service will be considered "best" in the future. This just might not be possible with any degree of confidence, and it might be better to buy whichever coin costs less NOW - unless of course you can see the imperfection in the coin that renders the 70 grade level incorrect.
As I have said before...back in the days before the 70 point grading sys...peopled grade coins UNC and PF...in one way I wouldn't mind going back to that...but that isn't going to happen... If you think there is a MS/PF70 coin...then by all means buy them...I'm not going to be so if you like them...more power to you! Speedy
cloud made a point i couldn't put into words at the time, however here's the truth of it. ok now take every one of those descriptions and put "at XX magnification" here's the PCGS definition ( from lingo section) meaning that a PCGS MS/PR 70 is a perfect coing at 5X magnification. taking the grading so literally as you do, no grade can be correct because if you increase the magnification you will see more flaws than the grade will allow. i know you will argue that it says "distracting" and other adjectives to describe the marks but again, at that magnification they ARE distracting. grading is a guide. no, no coin is dictionary perfect, but by the standards of the scale a coin can attain the highest grade possible. throw out the word "perfect", not the grade MS/PR 70 ( even if you wont buy them)
back to the topic, as people have said, buy the coin-not the slab. find 2 coins of the same grade from both companies, compare them and buy the one you want. pcgs= more resale value but if you are collecting buy what you want. go to http://www.heritagecoins.com/ they have a zoom feature that lets you zoom in on the coin(picture?) so you can see for yourself which company you like better even if you dont buy anything. a rare few of them are washed out by light but its good overall.
Speedy's evidence for prices realized is his one Proof Franklin in a NGC holder that he paid more than the same graded coin in a PCGS holder. That's one Speedy. What else to do you have? Prices realized are a pretty good indicator of the marketplace. Why? REAL money is exchanging hands and when "dollars & sense" are applied, the market is speaking! All and all, PCGS slabbed coins realize higher prices than the others. You may find exceptions here and there, but again...when you look at auction after auction, the evidence is pretty clear. So your contention that NGC slabs more 70 coins than PCGS is because of resubmissions? That is almost as lame as the bloody glove was planted at O.J. Simpson's house (along with all of the blood droplets). Possible? Maybe...Realistic? Very doubtful!! I provided the number of submissions of both services for the same coin and one service hands out almost 15 times MORE 70 grades than the other. ...and you believe there is no such thing as a 70 grade. Apparently NGC does! [I]"I think you like the PNG report...when they list NGC and PCGS at the SAME place (I think that happened this year and last if I remember right) I think they are the same..." [/I] I wouldn't put any stock into the PNG survey. First, both PCGS and NGC have/had a financial interest with sponsoring the PNG. Second, look at the number of members that actually returned the survey. 151 respondents in 2002 and 172 qualified respondents in 2004. BIG DEAL. Let's let the forum decide. I made my argument based on fact and reports...not "seems like" reasoning.
Someone smarter than me once made the observation in another thread that PCGS is only "better" than NGC if their slabs sell in the future for a higher percentage margin over NGC that exists in the present. So if a PCGS coins currently sells for 5% more than the same NGC coin, when you sell the coin someday, the PCGS coin must sell for 6%+ more than the NGC coin in order for it to be "better." In all other cases, NGC will be better. This makes a lot of sense when you think about it. So it isn't enough to dwell on current comparisons to make this sort of judgement about what to buy today.
My one stands to show that its not true that PCGS always gets more...that is what I'm trying to say...its not always PCGS that gets the bigger $$$. Now I'm not saying that NGC is 100% right on the mark all the time...but I don't think PCGS is either... I said I didn't agree with NGC on that point... I forgot to say...maybe (I don't know...I haven't asked) NGC gets more coins sent to them than PCGS...then it would only make cents that they would grade more coins than PCGS...like I said...I haven't called and asked...but would like to know... I know around here where I live PCGS is not liked now like they once where...people are going to NGC and PCI...PCGS doesn't grade like people want...they overgrade and then they undergrade...never are the same...I haven't seen that in NGC...I only wish I had photos to show.... Amen....I think we agree on something Midas...I know a good many guys that agree with me and a good many that disagree with me... but what makes me happy is...Coin Collectors down through the years have always had to make their own picks and make up their own minds...I'm glad we can still do that today... Speedy
Hey Midas... I got an idea...I'm going to a show (Maybe) on Fri...I'll ask some dealers while I'm there what they think about NGC and PCGS...and I'll post what they say when I can... Speedy
