Lanz and Roma

Wow! My initial FDC post has come full circle and led to another post lol. Looks like I'm doing good things on this website.
Roma, in my noob experience, seems like one of the most respected auction houses in the UK. Hence their ability to obtain and sell highest quality coins. The story that they are 'in bed' with Lanz started from one guy's response to my FDC post. Although this Lanz guy seems have gone downhill recently, I highly doubt a respected house like Roma is intentionally colluding with him to rip us off.

 

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Vcoins and ma-shops are just as dangerous as ebay for new collectors, like me. How am I supposed to know who is good and who isn't? Is there a list of vetted companies somewhere that I missed?
When I was hunting for an Athenian owl all I found were subpar coins for thousands listed on Vcoins. Whereas, go to CNG and bid for a much better coin for less than 1k. It's been my understanding that buying a coin outright will more of then than not be more expensive than bidding in auction.

 

That link re the "financing terrorism" claim doesn't seem to work -- here's a similar one: https://culturalpropertynews.org/rand-corp-report-demolishes-assumptions-on-antiquities-and-terror/

 

The advantage of buying through Vcoins is that there's an authenticity guarantee. And although I obviously haven't purchased from all the ancient coin dealers there, I think there are a lot of trustworthy dealers on Vcoins. I think 99% of the ones I have dealt with are trustworthy in the sense of being honest and having a good idea of what they're doing. Anyone can make a mistake now and then. Hugely different from ebay, which is inundated with fakes. Trustworthy in the sense of not "overcharging"? Some charge higher prices than others. That's why one has to comparison shop!

 

Thanks, Donna... must be connected with the linking issues we've seen on CT since the service interruption a while ago. It's an internal CT link though, so it's weird it didn't work for you! (Works for me.)

 

This statement is incorrect enough to be downright dangerous to other new collectors that read it. Ebay is on an entirely different level in terms of risk to a new collector. I would be interested to know if you still feel this way once you’ve been collecting a few years.

This is certainly not always true depending on the coin and the venue. The same as with auctions it comes down to doing your research.

 

The link to Valentinian's post works. It's Valentinian's link to the Cultural Property group that doesn't work.

 

I think that truism is less true now than it has been in the fairly recent past. The steep rise in auction prices, especially during the pandemic (together with increases in buyer's fees in recent years), has not been matched, as of yet, by any parallel rise in retail prices on platforms like VCoins. Speaking generally, of course.

 

Agreed. In fact I have learned a lot about which dealers I want to buy from going forward by taking note of which dealers have not raised prices on older stock. This year for the first time ever I have bought more from dealers than auctions.

 

VCoins is way better than eBay that is for sure and there are many good sellers on there.

What has left a bad taste in my mouth is the whole issue of false patinas. I know you know a lot about that @DonnaML since you were very active in those discussions and you called out some of the artificial toning.

To me applying false patina or artificial toning seems really dishonest. But VCoins seems okay with dealers who have done that repeatedly and I don't get it. I guess this is maybe a cross cultural issue, an American vs European attitudes thing?

 

FWIW, on biddr I trust Savoca and Numismatik Naumann. I've ordered from both and was very happy.
In terms of Roma, I've ordered from them as well and was pleased.

 

Right -- I wasn't thinking about that issue. I could be wrong, but I can think of only two dealers on VCoins (A and Z, one in Canada and the other in Abu Dhabi I think) who are notorious for selling coins with fake patina and/or toning. Is the problem more widespread than those two? On MA-Shops, I recently learned about one dealer (H in the Netherlands) known for applying an artificial tone to silver coins so that they all look basically alike. Which I think is a good thing to watch out for: dealers whose coins all look alike!

 

Could you link to me Vcoins' guarantee of authenticity? Can't seem to find it anywhere. Also, am I missing something or doesn't Ebay have a buyers protection program? You open a case and file complaint against a dealer if 'item is not as described' i.e. fake instead of genuine.

 

https://www.vcoins.com/en/CodeOfEthics.aspx

1. 
   10. I will vouch for the authenticity of items I sell and will have no time limit on the return of items discovered to be non-authentic. I will offer a full cash refund upon return of any such item, including the cost of return shipping.

 

You can always trust the Viennese! As an Austrophile I love winning coins at NN most of all.

 

I’m pretty sure we could bombard each other with links stating opposite opinions and facts here.
The RAND piece tones down the significance and level of looting, but it is not proving that looting isn’t part of financing these organizations.

I simply don’t believe that looted coins and antiques are not a problem in todays market. To state that «coins are not financing terror» looks to me like wishful thinking. I’m sure we can discuss to what extent this trade is organized by an organization like ISIS, and I’m sure we can find new links with different numbers, and statistics and photos that have been manipulated to suit the opinion of the publisher. However, I find it very hard to believe that this isn’t happening at all.



Trench digging at Mari. When the trenches were no longer needed, ISIS carefully put back in place all the ancient artifacts that were unearthed.

 

Except there's another dealer in Vienna who is on my black list.

Also, while I know that this is national bias and unfair to some dealers, I currently do not buy any coins from the Netherlands. Between a certain dealer already mentioned here and others I've read complaints about, I've just decided to skip the entire country...

So far, I've been sticking only to countries who speak French, German, or uncommon English (he he)...

 

It's impossible to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on those who allege that a substantial part of the antiquities trade (including ancient coins) does consist of looted items the proceeds from which have been used to finance terrorism. In fact, specifically as to Isis and Syria, there's never been a shred of proof for any of it. Plus, the annual dollar amount of the antiquities trade (perhaps $300 million in total, worldwide) represents only a minuscule percentage of the art market in general. Even if 1% of that total were funneled to terrorist groups, it would be essentially meaningless. There just isn't enough money involved to suggest that it plays a major role in financing terrorism. Certainly not significant compared to sales of drugs, weapons, etc., trafficking of people, and so on. See this interesting article from 2019 (which happens to have been written by the same dealer from whom I recently purchased my little bronze Apis bull):

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...hare/1671d443cd7e032a7069a0b06ead1401e093caa5, at pp. 227-228; coins are discussed at p. 231.

Yes, I'm sure that professional criminals, organized and otherwise, play a part in the illegal export of coins and other antiquities from Turkey specifically. Is there enough money involved to support terrorism? Should we lump criminals from all Middle Eastern countries together and assume that they funnel their profits to terrorists? I think it's a stretch.

 

So if we can’t prove it, and as it’s not big money anyway, it doesn’t matter?
I can’t prove it. Lucky I’m not in court, but on a discussion board where I feel free to post my observations and opinions. Lumping «criminals from all Middle Eastern countries together and assume that they funnel their profits to terrorists» isn’t one of them. How did these criminals from all over the Middle East get into Palmyra and other ancient cities while they were held by ISIS?

 

From Roma and Lanz to ISIS and international crime. You guys don't play around do ya?