Why toned coins

True dat.

I've never seen a rainbow Peace dollar. I don't scout 'em much at shows, but a coin like that would usually be prominently displayed.

 

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Part of what makes them hard to find is that once one hits the market, the person who buys that coin usually takes the coin of the market for many years. The real monsters are so rare that each individual coin is remembered for it's toning. The Morgan Dollar that I posted earlier in this thread is one of those coins. If you say the "Sunnywood 1881-S" to a toning enthusiast, he will immediately know the coin to which you refer.

I know it sounds a little far fetched for collectors to remember specific coins based on their toning, but take a look at this exchange between TomB and myself on the NGC forum. This exchange took place today.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3512138&gonew=1#UNREAD

Tom recalled that CRO (Coin Rarities Online) sold an exquisitely toned MS67 Antietam a few years ago that he thought would fit into the OP's collection. As the owner of the coin Tom was talking about which is actually an MS66, I recalled a gorgeous MS67 Antietam sold by Anaconda Rare Coins at about the same time. Some coins are toned so beautifully that once you see them they leave a lasting impression.

The OP of this thread asked why. Above is the real answer. A coin with exceptional toning can leave a lasting impression on the collector viewing the coin. Once it does that, it no longer can be associated with the population of it's grade. Since we are talking about Peace Dollars, let us consider an MS64 1923-S Peace Dollar with a total population of 3192/190. Not a particularly rare coin and worth about $250 in the market. Now look at this 1923-S that Ron Sirna posted on the TCCS board in 2006. Ron Sirna is the founder of the Toned Coin Collectors Society and is one of the most respected numismatists in the world with respect to toning. I will post both the photo and the link to the thread from which it came.



http://www.tonedcoins.org/forums/view_topic.php?id=2097&forum_id=15&highlight=peacegate

This Peace Dollar is absolutely unforgettable. The toning completely separates it from the other MS64 1923-S dollars. This coin has a population of one and the price of this coin will reflect that. My guess is that if this coin were sold at auction, it would realize a price above $5,000 easily.

PS. For those collectors that believe that rainbow toned coins are a fad, please read the link above. Ron's analysis of why the toned coin market crashed is spot on IMO. I have long said that the stability of the toned coin market is directly linked to consumer confidence in the ability of the TPG's to weed out an acceptable percentage of the AT coins in the marketplace.

 

This isn't natural beauty?




There are thousands of regular MS-64 1885-Ps out there but how many bag toned examples like this exist that didn't get melted down during the Pittman Act or dipped at some point? What if somebody here wanted an 1885-P just like mine here? What if 2 or 3 people wanted one just like this? Or 50? Who's going to find what and where? And how much will they pay for one that may not resemble this one at all?

I don't view this as damage at all. It was a natural process that occurred and has stopped occurring. You're left with this.
It may look like the colors could have been air brushed on there but the luster is not covered up at all. It cartwheels right through that color.

Toning gives character. It makes a coin one of a kind. I like MS, clean coins too but you can sell one off and buy another just like it any day.

Toned coins are special and should command a premium. Although I too agree that some of the premiums have become outrageous and that encourages AT'ing. But, if one person is willing to pay it, what can you do?

 

You've all been discussing toned silver, but as many here already know, copper can tone in absolutely beautiful colors and definitely comes with premium price tags. I know, because that's what I collect. Whether as a dealer or a collector, I often have to pay huge premium prices to find nicely toned copper. And the reasons have been discussed at length in several other threads here and on other message boards. But, as they say, a picture tells a thousand words - so here are a few pictures that will hopefully take the place of a few thousand words! After seeing some of these little guys, most people will agree toned coins do indeed deserve a premium.....

 

I am not a Peace Dollar expert but I found interesting David Hall's recent statement on rainbow toned Peace dollars, which he mentions in his Coin Market Update last week and is in the CoinFacts listing for 1921 Peace Dollars (which he wrote). Essentially, he says he considers any Peace dollar with rainbow toning to be absolutely artificially toned. This seems a rather harsh assessment to me but certainly worth considering, particularly if you hope to get a rainbow Peace dollar in a PCGS holder.

 

Here's one of my few toned coins. A 1900-O Morgan that had sat for 20 or more years before I got it.
It is darker then it looks, the camera flash helps it's appearence. There is also some dust on the holder in front of her nose...the reverse pic blurred.



And I have worse, yet to be photographed...

I have a Peace with a small section of rainbow toning, which is 100% natural. More then likely it sat in the container it was in from the 1950s until 2008...definitly in there from 1977-2008...It's a small, muted section, but the colors are there...I will try and get a picture!

 

With all respect to David Hall , I don't see how he can make a blanket statement like that , unless peace dollars were somehow magicly treated to not tone . the proof to me lays in the fact that even AT follows natures rules albiet speeded up , so if a coindoctor can AT a peace dollar it seems nature can too .
rzage

 

I never seen a toned peace dollar like Vess posted and often wondered why not , was the pressure used different , or was a chemical bath used . rzage

 

Thanks Doug , and I just read the article with David Hall , he said any peace dollar with colorful toning , the reason he gives are that he never saw these colors on peace dollars before , so it's unlikely peace dollars started to suddenly tone like this . Here's the link to his article
http://www.pcgs.com/articles/articl...e&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ezine10132009

rzage

 

Amen Brother --- blast white with lots of luster......

 

So, pretty much...coins altered by dipping.

Don't get me wrong, I love blast white too...but any silver coin that white have been dipped at one point or another.

 

Does luster survive dipping? I thought I had read that it doesn't, but of course I could be mistaken or it could depend on exactly how the dipping is done.

 

That is pretty believable since at one time, that process was not frowned on and did not detract from prices but would have increased prices! Why every coin wouldn't have been dipped (if needed) would be a legitimate question.

I'm wondering if the color on a bag toned Morgan like I posted above would remain or be as brilliant if it were dipped at some point? I'd have to imagine the dip would remove the color. So couldn't you say a toned Morgan like that was never dipped? If so, the luster looks the same on it as any other MS Morgan I have. I can't tell the difference. Maybe that's why coins that were dipped carefully, make it into slabs?

I just got a pretty much blast white 1891 NGC MS-63 dime in the mail today. I suppose it could have been dipped but it made it into an NGC slab and the cartwheel luster looks good to me. There's a light brown area on the reverse at 4 o'clock barely noticeable. Other than that, glaring white and cartwheel luster, both sides.

 

The coin in question:



That almost looks like "tab" toning you'd see on a commem.

Anyone know if these coins had similar cardboard sleeves, and the premium on this coin is because it is an original tab-toned specimen?

 

But doesn't each dipping take off a little luster , and unless you can tell how much luster is left you might be taking off the final fraction ?
rzage

 

Yes