I recently saw an eBay listing where the seller speculated that more than half of the uncertified 1909 s vdb Lincoln cents offered on eBay were not genuine. I presume the most common alterration is to put an "S" on a 1909 vdb. Then I came across this item http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-KEY-DATE-L...331080926QQcategoryZ39456QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and noticed what looks like an odd placement and orientation of the S. Does anyone know what to make of this? Thanks.
I don't go near a coin that is that high in $$ without it being slabbed...and then I have to know a bit about it and what to look for... I didn't get to look to long tonight as I have school tomorrow but from what I saw..the S looked a little bigger than it should... Speedy
The "S" Mintmark appears to be the correct size and shape used for the 1909-S VDB Cent. However, I am a little suspect of the dark area around the Mintmark which may indicate that an indent was made to apply an "S" Mintmark to the coin which came from another coin. Without being able to personally inspect the coin before the purchase, I would not bid on the coin unless the Seller sends it off to have it Authenticated, Slabbed and Graded. Frank
He says that he knows nothing about coins but he takes photos of all the right areas of a coin. Photos are good and he says it's guaranteed authentic, if it's not real he's leaving himself open for something. I dont know.
Maybe right size and shape, but position and orientation seem different from, for example, this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-S-VDB-Linc...ryZ39456QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting which is NGC slabbed.
The most common alteration is adding an S to a 1909 vdb per PCGS Guide to Coin Grading nad Counterfeit Detection The orientation looks wrong. "THIS IS A LIGITAMITE AND GENUINE 1909S VDB....AND ONLY THAT I WILL GUARANTEE. ALL SALES FINAL." And what the heck does this mean?? Final sale or guarantee??
There were 4 different obverse dies used for the 09S VDB cents, each with a different mintmark location. I don't have examples of all 4 in front of me right now but I am looking. I agree with huntsman53 that the MM shape and size are correct. I would guess that the location is ok too, pending further investigation. It is within the area where mintmarks should be placed on Lincoln cents, so it could be genuine. I agree that the dark spot near the MM is of much more concern than the MM's location. ok, I'm off to see if I can locate pictures of all 4 MM loctations now. TTFN
well it looks like that particular MM location is one of the 4 known and accepted locations. here a couple of auctions at Heritage that have slabbed SVDB's with that exact MM location. Link 1 Link 2 I think this coin is probably genuine, but I'd still have to see it in person before I dropped $1000 on an unslabbed key.
Thanks for an education. I had not realized that MM locations could vary depending on the die used -- would have thought the dies would have been consistent. About the dark spot. Do you guys mean the spot just above and toward the left side of the "S"? I never would have given that a second thought. What does it suggest regarding potential authenticity?
Actually, the dies are identical except for the date and the mintmark. In 1909 the dies were made from the master hub and then the date was added. After the addition of the date, the MM was added to each individual die. The punch used to add the "S" to the dies was the same for each of the San Francisco dies so when we say the size and shape are correct we are just confirming that that particular "S" was made with the correct punching tool. After confirmation of the MM style then we look for location. Since this location is acceptable then we begin to look to see if that "S" was chiselled off of another San Francisco minted cent and then attatched to this coin. That is where the concern about the discoloration cones into play. The discoloration we are talking about is the slightly darker section below the MM that is about the width of the MM. It could be dried glue/epoxy residue. That is why I wouldn't buy this coin unless I could examine it in my hand with a loupe. That way I could look at how the MM is "attached" to the coin. If there is a seam, it is obviously altered; but a genuine MM sort of "explodes out" of the surface of a coin; you'd recognize it if you saw it under a loupe, it would just look "right".
