So I bought some Chinese replicas off ebay....

Have you guys ever wondered what the replicas you see for sale on ebay are like? I always have. And although I never wanted to contribute a dime to them, my curiosity got the best of me so I did an experament. This was my plan and my experience so far....

To buy one example from one seller tells me nothing. Could get a bad one. Could get a good one.

So I decided to purchase several of the same type, from three separate, prominent sellers from China that surely everyone has run across at least once. This way I can look for a pattern and compare quality.

I chose to purchase 1914-D buffalo nickels. A semi-key date although they do produce examples of common ones also. I submitted best offers to all of them and was accepted. I had no communication with the sellers. They advertise these replicas as having a stamp on them. So, I decided to play dumb and just assume that is how they would come since that is how they are advertised.

15 days later, 2 of the 3 packages arrive from Hong Kong. (Still waiting for the third package to arrive.)
These 2 arrived on the same day. The packages are the same with the same labels. But were from two different sellers. I opened them both up. None of them had a replica stamp so the rumor is true. I did not ask them to leave it off.

At first glance, I was very impressed with them. I thought they were excellent. The apparent 'luster' seems VERY realistic and would fool most who are not familiar with the series. With a brief inspection, I suspect many dealers and most novice collectors would not suspect anything out of the ordinary.

After studying them longer and after closer inspection, I found no less than ten discrepancies with them.

Their weights was not one of them! The worst one was 0.1 grams underweight. With the rest being 0.05 g underweight to dead on.

These particular ones had an approx. 1/2 mm x 2 mm raised piece of metal on the cheek. They all had it. So it is obvious both sellers got them from the same source.

All were too big in diameter. Nothing you would be able to spot with the naked eye unless you had one side by side with them. Then you may or may not notice it. I measured them all with a digital caliper and they were consistantly too big. But less than 0.2 mm. They will fit in a nickel tube but will not fit in a Whitman album. All the real buffalos I tested were surprisingly within 0.01 mm of their spec.

Next is the color. I don't know what they're made of. I would have thought they would have melted worn out common, real ones down to make their fakes, but who knows. Most, but not all of them had an unnatural golden hue that didn't look right. They are unnaturally glossy.

The strike on the lettering of Liberty is pretty weak. The surface is universally grainy under a 10x loupe, but absolutely unnoticeable to the naked eye. Some other features did not turn out right and should have shown up well for the 'supposed' quality of the coin.

I will post an update when the third package arrives.

Fake:



Real:




A lot of this stuff may seem obvious now. But if it was in a 2x2 like this test thread I just ran:
http://www.cointalk.com/t71818/

and you are unsuspecting, it would be possible to buy one of these and never notice without close investigation. The most obvious factor with these was the off color (which some were better than others) and the lump of metal on the cheek. Which the next date may not have had.

Someone by PM asked me if the edges looked worked on. Under a 10x loupe, (I have 20/20 vision) I could barely see fine scratches on some of the edges.
I suspect if these were worn and a little more beat up, they would blend in much better and be that more unnoticeable.

These cost less than $20. If these were real in this condition, this batch would sell for around $3,200 or more.







Moral of the story, never let your guard down and inspect the loose coins you buy very closely. These were far from perfect and should be spotted by most. But if you're not paying attention, many people would not spot them.
Luckily, there's no way these would pass at NGC or PCGS. But this is just a single example. It's likely that others out there are producing better ones.
I was somewhat relieved that these had as many problems as they did. More than I expected in the end. They must feel that the quality is close enough to fool most.

 

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Scary indeed vess...

 

Some things I noticed on them. They may be cast so I asked Vess to look at the edge for the sprue attachment, perhaps it was filed or burnished down.

There is a large depression below the buffalo on the reverse.
The tail is 'wrong', and some of the lettering appears too weak.
There is also a raised blem on the cheek of the indian.

What I find interesting is that he got the 2 coins from 2 different sellers and they appear to be from the same source.

 

I was looking at feedback for these sellers, so many people buy from them, it's scary if people buy from ebay, could've bought from people that bought fakes and don't advertise as fake.

 

Amazing post!! I wonder what they are made of and I wonder if the Chinese counterfeiters are making large bills and having their cronies spend them in our USA? Maybe not, it's very possible that they are content with all the money they are getting from the unknowing buyers on ebay. Take notice ebay!!

This experiment of yours sure makes me take notice. You know it would be great if the FBI or Homeland Security went up and smacked someone up aside the head with a huge prison sentence!! Of course I don't know how that could happen but that's what mercenaries are for, I guess.

 

I may be stating the obvious, but, the location of the coin is China? Cause for concern. However, to the unenlightened, the location may not make any differance....

 

I have to say whatever is on the edges is so unnoticeable that it's inconclusive. Fine, perpendicular (like reeding) scratches that are barely visible under 10x. Could not pick them out of a lineup by edges alone. No flaws.

I'm going to have 11 of these after I get them all. I may just send you a couple to check out for yourself. What am I going to do with this many anyway? I plan to store them in a roll with a large, fake/replica label on the tube. I plan to keep for educational purposes. Although, they should be destroyed.

I did not notice the depression under the buffalo in hand but it was noticeable in that pic. I can see it on that one in hand now. But, that was the only 1 out of the 8 that had that depression. As I said, all 8 had the raised piece of metal on the cheek. So they were at least made with the same tool or same copy of tool. I am interested to see if the next ones I get are the same as well.

The tail is a blob of metal and is not right. You are correct. The edge of the raised fur above the front leg is not right either. If they are cast, this must be a harder detail to duplicate.

 

Yes, I would venture to say this happens on a regular basis. In fact, a few weeks ago, just by looking at feedback, I caught a guy that was buying fakes from China and selling them on the sell side as real with bad pics. He was also selling a lot of modern, cheap, real stuff, so the scams blended in to all his cheap positive feedback. Once in a while, he would sell a coin worth hundreds. The buyer initially left positive feedback over the fake too.

I contacted the buyer of the fake. He said thanks but he knew it was and had already resolved it and got his money back. But the seller is still selling on ebay. No punishment.

 

I watched a show on counterfeiting bills a while back. It's a huge problem world wide and they do send agents world wide. US agents spent 3 weeks in the jungles of South America to find a little underground hole where they estimate the counterfeiters had created at least 3 million in $100 bills and distributed them into the U.S. They have hundreds of different fakes on file to check against when fakes are found in circulation.

You should be aware that China makes replicas and fakes of everything. Especially antiques. And they specialize in selling it all as real. It is NOT against the law to counterfeit foreign coins in China. It is against the law to ship them here without a stamp though. But who's going to spend the resources to track them down? The return address is a P.O. box. They got through customs labeled as "crafts".

 

I think the bigger problem is the secondary market. Once they get here, the next buyer has no idea where they came from. You could sell these relatively cheap to just about any pawn shop with ease.

 

Well, that's wishful thinking... on the priority scale for Homeland Security, numismatic forgery doesn't even exist. In fact (unlike counterfeiting), it is LOW on the FBI's and Secret Service's list, if it's even there at all. A much higher priority is the near perfect counterfeit bills coming out of North Korea. So our Chinese friends will continue to do what they do best... produce more (and better) fakes, with total immunity (as they are not violating any of their laws). By some estimates, over ten thousand unmarked replica coins (many key date) are entering the U.S. every week.

 

Kinda gives you a real sick feeling in your gut , blows me away more can't be done to stop this PIRACY

 

Indeed you are right my friend.....

 

Interesting thought crossed my head reading this, they sell fake coins so why not find a way to sell them fake gold and silver or at least put a little tale tail sign in their bullion hmmmmmmmmmm, got to be a way to stop this???????

 

You need a chop mark like on trade dollars that says, "中国COPY" (ChinaCOPY) which you could hammer into the fakes when found, that is if they're not being used for educational purposes or going straight to scrap metal melting pot. :hammer:

 

Vess, this is great, because I'm pretty sure it was you a week or two ago that made a comment somewhere about daring someone to order some online. So I actually did. And I was going to do this exact thing when they arrive. Although mine aren't Buff's.
Very interesting, Thankyou!

 

Here's something I just thought of. The interesting thing about these is they all have the same raised blemish on the cheek of the indian, but only one of them has what appears to be a depression under the buffalo. If these were all made from the same dies (assuming they were struck), then all of them should have this depression in the same place, but they don't, only 1 does, yet all have the same blemish on the cheek. This is why I think they may be cast?

 

I hope you do a post on whatever you get. I think we would all be interested to see someone else's experience here with another type. I probably should have bought more other types in addition to these but I've found enough problems to where I don't think it would be worth it.

I've seen enough to spot one of these now. From these guys anyway.

 

. . . this is a situation in which we could really make use of a strategic air strike, if we but knew the location of the fakers.

 

Great idea, except fr one thing. The only person who has done anything illegal in this situation is Vess1. The chinese counterfeiter hasn't done anything wrong. Making fake US coins isn't illegal in China. The seller has done anything illegl either, either by selling them or but shipping them to the US. But Vess1 HAS violated the HPA by importing unmarked copies.

Or the other obvious reason, the counterfeiter has more than one D mint reverse die.