Are all grades equal ?

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Nope--all grades are not the same...and I'm not a experienced collector either!!!

Speedy

 

That is why I hope that computer laser scanning can be eventually used for technical grading. There are a number of technologies that can measure a surface and give it a numerical number (let's call it "X"). We could use this coin, or a number of given coins averaged out so that we have a base coin database to compare the submission against.

Take your submitted coin (call it "Y"). The closer numerical values for X and Y are to each other, the higher the grade. The greater the differance, the lower the grade.

This would take all of the human subjectivity out from technical grading. Of course luster, mirror-like surfaces, and eye appeal still would be subjected (maybe not as these scanners can also measure color too), but what a huge hurdle that could be addressed!

Otherwise, when humans and eyes get involved...opinions on grading WILL ALWAYS differ!!

 

When I think about grades not being the same but being the same....I think of it like this...we may have a Barber Half Dollar that has good detail and would grade F...but it is soo good that it is almost better than F but its not...I call that a high end F...when I think of a grade that is the same but not the same at the same time I think of high and low end grades...
Luster...eye appeal and many other things would come into this too...

Sorry but I hope that we never get to the place where we have computers telling us what our coins grade....

I'm sorry to say that most of the grading Co....PCGS/NGC/ANACS and more seem to grade key dates higher than they should be...I have seen this happen and don't like it...if a coin grades VG it should be VG not matter if there is only a hand full known...it should be VG if that is the ONLY one known...but today our grading Co. play favorites and a computer isn't going to change that...a person who can fiddle with a computer can figure out how to make them grade their coins better than Joe Brown down the road...

Speedy

 

Perhaps the coin collector who is not an expert should care about when the coin was graded as much as what is the grade. We could of course see who graded it by the label. I think I see GD's viewpoint for this is serious stuff for the whole permise of coin collecting rests not only on the coin but the foundation of the classifications of the coins.

 

Midas, I like your graphic and your line of thought with technology and scanners.
Perhaps a coin should have a standard technical grade and then a human subjectivity
grade. After all honest human assessments of coinage is part of the fun.

 

My question would be isn't it humans who would set the presidence for the computer. Therfore there still is a humans opinion involed. The computer would be a bit more consistant, than the humansthough I quess.

 

As stated, step 1.) Use computers to assign the technical grade. Step 2.) to grade the coin based on eye appeal, luster, DMPL, etc. Of course, color and luster/light reflection can also be measured, calculated, and recorded too!

Using your logic for a F versus a high end F is just like comparing "Super Unleaded " versus "Premium Plus" Gasoline. Enough with adjectives and human subjectivity...what octane (grade) is it? 93 Octane is better than 92. Case closed. If you you want to call it F versus "high-end" F, there lies the problem. How high-end is it? Is it F15 or F19?

Your definition of "high-end" may not be the same as the next person as well as the next person. The best part of delta values (change of) and simple math is that 2 plus 2 always equals 4.

[Unless you attend some government schools that allow 2 plus 2 to equal 4 if you FEEL it equals 4 based on your up-bringing and social economic class]

F15 is a better grade than F12. Period. 65 is more than 64. Numbers are exact. Adjectives and descriptions can be skewed anyway you wish.

 

You can do it this way. Take 10 coins of the same coin from the same grade from each of the TPG's. Measure/Scan these coins so that you establish data whereby all 40 (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG for instance) coins are AVERAGED out into ONE data base. You can even throw out the high's and low's (i.e., Olympic scoring per say) to really narrow in on the statistical data. This will further keep the standard of deviation to a minimum when analysing this statistical "norm".

All of this data is then formulated to a "given" that all submissions are compared against. The greater the differance between the submitted coin to this given, the lesser the grade.

 

and as I said...no computer is going to tell me what my coin is graded and I'm sure many other collectors would agree with me 100%...grading is a hobby in itself...and many of us enjoy it...

I think the F grade goes from F12 too F15...I have never heard F19...

People agree on somethings...but nobody will ever agree with everything...and they will never agree with the grade on the slab OR on the computer.

People have always bickered about grading...they have agreed and disagree with each others grading...and they will bickered with a computer grade...a computer is NOT 100% MS70...perfect.

Speedy

 

lol, MS70 isnt perfect.......just as close as you can get

 

Doing it this way would lead to a more accountable grading. Taking the average of enough coins should help eliminate the human factor.

 

Speedy...laser scanning and computer aided designs (CAD for short) don't have "feelings". Data is nothing more than a string of One's and Zero's but make no mistake about this, math is exact. 2 plus 2 equals 4. 2 minus 1 equals 1. There are no other answers.

You may think grading is a hobby in itself, but when hundreds, if not thousands of dollars are involved, people want more assurances than what a seller "feels" his coin is graded compared to what a buyer "feels" the coin should be. Hence the free market response to the evolution and success of TPG's. It wasn't the buyer's opinion or the seller's opinion...it was the third partied grading company's which are so suppose to grade/authenticate submissions with no interest to either party.

You may want to argue that point, but try selling a 1909-S VDB 1c based on your opinion against one in a PCGS or NGC slab. The coin in the PCGS/NGC AU58 slab (for instance) will sell for substantially more than your coin and your opinion of AU58.

Still, as you state, nobody or no machine is going to tell you what the coin is. That may be fine for you but try taking that attitude with a buyer or seller of a coin. A seller may think it is MS65 and you think it is MS63. "Don't tell me it is a MS65!" may be your response and there lies the problem. Do you call in a third person? Do you tell the seller that his opinion of the grade is garbage? Do you tell him that you know more than he does? Or do you take it to a TPG table like ANACS who tells you it is a MS64 and you are BOTH wrong...in his opinion of course!

Also you are right...I never seen a F19 grade, but F grades DO range from F12 to F19 whereby VF starts at 20 and goes to 39. Sure you will never see a VF37, but you do see grades like AU53. Why is there a AU53 but not a F17? Maybe that coin has more eye appeal than a AU50.

["People agree on somethings...but nobody will ever agree with everything...and they will never agree with the grade on the slab OR on the computer.

People have always bickered about grading...they have agreed and disagree with each others grading...and they will bickered with a computer grade...a computer is NOT 100% MS70...perfect."]

Well that's like I am taking my ball home and nobody can play anymore because I can't support my argument.

Just imagine you are in front of Judge Judy on People's Court and you are suing for damages. You tell Judge Judy that it is your opinion that the coin in question is worth ____ dollars because your opinion of the grade is _____. She will ask you if you have any supporting documents that support your opinion of worth and grade. You tell her...it is my opinion because no company or no machine is going to tell me otherwise.

She then looks to the defendant and asks the same question and the defendent (me) provides documentation from the likes of NGC or PCGS. Also, I provide prices realized from a number of sources showing the court that the coin has recently obtained ____ dollars in the same grade as questioned.

She then looks back at you and asks if you have any other means to prove your case and you tell her, "this is how I feel".

<I can hear the court's hammer closing the proceedings.>

**********************************************************

[Midas let me ask you a question - do you or don't you agree that not all MS64 graded coins are equal?]

No they are not equal...hence the need for objective standardization. We see things differantly. Ask one person to describe color and then another. There lies just one of the problems. One coin may have contact marks and the other may have scuff or bag marks. The hobby has tried to govern themselves as to what are the parameters of a MS64 coin +/-. Some coins will fall above the median and others below, but within the parameters of the grade...whatever that may be and by whose standards.

Take color for instant. The human eye can detect color changes no lower than Delta E 1.0 to 1.5. We have color measuring devices that you see at Home Depot and auto body shops that can detect color differances to Delta E .001. Bottom line is that they can measure and document color 1000 times better than what we see with the human eye!

[Now I am going to assume, based on what I know of your knowledge and experience, that you would answer - they are not all equal.]

Which is the great thing about math. Adding or subtracting numbers will give you real numbers, not opinions.

[But let me ask the question in a different way - are all examples of a given coin graded as MS64, by the same company - worth the same amount of money?]

There are two basic components to coin grading...technical grading and eye appeal. I am all for a standardization for technical grading where the use of today's technology can scan surfaces for nicks, contact marks, etc. The greater the differance, the lower the technical grade.

Second in regards to eye appeal, you could address it just like Delta E values. The greater the color differance, the lower the "eye appeal" grade...OR...since there is market for rainbow or toned specimens, you can go the other way too! The greater the color differance (when you account for Red, Green or Blue color values), the higher the grade.

[But what creates these grades within grades - what causes one coin to be high end and the other low end ? It can be several things - one coin may have one less mark in a prime focal area. It may have slightly better luster or better eye appeal. Or one coin may be pleasingly toned and the other not so pleasingly toned. Or one coin may have a slightly better strike than the other.

All of these things play a part in determining high end - from low end. Wouldn't you agree ?]

Absolutely...which is all the reason to establish a "given" for the coin, for that specific mint strike, and for that specific year. Compare the given database of our "standard" coin to the submitted coin and you will obtain hardcore real data...not opinions. After the technical data is compared, you would then look at the eye appeal components...even though there is other instrumentation available today to measure that too! (like reflection, specific colors, luster, etc.)

As numismatics evolved from grading terms like "Fine" to F12 or F15 (where F15 is obviously better), so too will hardcore data replace opinions and adjectives for coin grading. I look at it similar to DNA science. Finger prints provided law enforcement with a great tool to identify criminals. It wasn't perfect, but then DNA evidence was introduced. Unless you have a O.J. Simpson dream team of lawyers, try to argue against those conclusions!

Sure beats somebody's opinion if they are on a witness stand!

 

This is already well known to experienced buyers and sellers, which I am not. I do know, however, as a journalist, that serious buyers and seller know by the serial number, etc., when a coin was graded and if that means tighter or looser grading then versus now.

This is another factor in the grading nonsense matrix. You have these so-called "standards" that change with time.

 

It would be nice to know that if a coin was cracked out of a holder and resubmitted that it would receive the same grade 1,000 out of 1,000 times. I think this would result in a few changes to the hobby. (1) amateurs would be on a more level playing field with professionals when buying and selling, absent fraud, because the ability to grade coins accurately on sight will be diminished in value. They can just pull out their portable ANA approved scanning device and grade raw coins more accurately than any professional in the business. (2) it would probably result in an increase in the number of grades that could be assigned to a coin, so there wouldn't be high-end and low-end coins within grades. (3) it would be very easy to compare TPGs and determine who had the tightest standards. Over time this might force them to all fall in line and adopt the same standard, or perhaps put them out of business completely once the technology becomes pervasive. (4) the prices for high grade uncirculated coins might increase substantially. Right now, there is probably an uncertainty discount built into the price to allow for potential overgrading and difficulty reselling at the assigned grade in the future. But if there is an assurance that the MS66 coin of today would be MS66 decades from now, the buyer might be more willing to pay a higher price for that assurance.

I think computerized grading is probably inevitable. The only question is when it will occur. Once it occurs, it will be impossible to turn back the clock, and the hobby will change forever.

 

Are all examples of a given coin graded as MS64, by the same company worth the same amount of money? How many times have you looked though a box of coins to find the perfect hole filler, only to say to yourself, “ if it just wasn’t so ugly”? The existent of tone and marks are totally subjective to the buyer just as it is to the grader.

Laser grading coins is a good idea though. I’d like to see some basic software that can take a scanned image and give me an idea of its grade. It will arm our hobby with much knowledge.

But what make you think that PCGS and NGC will ever use the same scanning system? If 2 from PCSG =grate taste and 2 from NGC= less filling. 4 will never match.

Mark Ferguson wrote in the article, “Being confident of your own grading is your best protection as a buyer.”

 

Well said Midas. But when is this technology gonna be available to the average hobbist like some of us? Perhaps it would be so expensive so that only the established grading company can afford, thus they can still keep their jobs!

Really, grading is just a big beauty contest for coins.

I don't think rarity of a coin should have an effect on grade. On the price, yes.

Excellent topic!

 

Computers like I said before are not "MS70"...there are people who can change such things to do almost anything they want it to do...

Grading is a hobby...I'm sorry you don't think so...its a great hobby....and when hundreds of dollars are involved...its the BUYER who must make the final..YES or NO...when I got my SVDB I had to look at what I thought it was graded....not what the slab said...not what the dealer said...but what I said...and that is all the matters..when I go to sell it I hope the buyer is smart enough to know that HE must be the one to decide what it is graded....if computers graded coins I would still be the one that would have to say I agree or I disagree.

I would have thought as a coin collector you would have known something here that I have just read in the last few years....you NEVER tell a guy...This coin is a MS63 not a MS65 when buying...as I said...its the buyer who must decided what the coin is graded and he must decided if he should buy it or not...dealers get ticked off when people like me or you try to tell them they can't grade...that is lesson #1 in my book about going to a coin show.

I didn't feel that way and I still don't
Well your not going to like this either but me and you are never going to agree on this...you and some people want computers..I and many others don't..that is just fact.

I for one don't watch Judy...and from what I've heard and been told...her "law" means nothing...its as fake as can be...if I said anymore it would be Off Topic and I don't want to go there.

Speedy

 

Computers and mathematics are an exact science. 2 plus 2 equals 4. Delta values (which means change of) are real as the answer to 2 minus 1. Of course if you are alluding to the vast right-wing conspiracy which is the problem of everything, you may have a point. Nothing is perfect and those evil people are cooking computer programs as we speak. Could it happen? Sure it could just like when all of the cops got together during the O.J. Simpson trial and asked each other, "We're gotta frame Simpson...are you in?"

I shouldn't have used the terms "just imagine" or other ficticous terms to draw comparisons to and from. So let's not imagine or draw comparisons to Judge Judy.

I should have stated, "You are in front of a REAL judge and have to make the following REAL arguements as I outlined in my previous post..." Which argument would a REAL judge find judgment for?

I should have also stated that a dealer that lists his coin as MS65 whereas you think it is a MS63 is NOT a matter of open conversation, but private thoughts during the buying process. What frosts me is that a dealer may tell you it is a MS65 and you may go through the time and expense of going to see the coin, only to arrive and be disappointed. If that dealer told me that he has a given coin graded by ____ as ____, then I really couldn't blame him. So my post was not entended to be LITERAL as these issues occur all of the time when a seller thinks one way and the buyer thinks (to himself) the other.

Sure you can walk away and make a note that ____ Coin Shop is for nothing, but your time is already wasted.

Of course you are NOT going to tell him OUT LOUD that he can't grade, but you will think it and quietly call the seller a $%*&$%#.

If you can think of another method to consistently grade coins technically and by eye appeal without human subjectivity as a 3rd party medium, I am all ears. Otherwise, trust me!