I know I will show my ignorance in asking this question, but here it goes. I know coin grading is and can be subjective. It also varies accoring to the denomination. BUT!, just to make this a level playing field, let's use the Lincoln. Making up some scale, let's say 1 to 10. What is the difference from one grade to another? In some cases is it 2 points and other is is 10 points. I have seen some really neat post about grading, but at the end of the day, I wonder what is the exact difference between two grades. Out of 100 looks from professional graders will the difference between two grades be consistant to a certain point? The reason I ask this is I am trying to get a handle on this grading. I can see the difference between a (f) and (XF), but I could not see the difference between a (AU50) and a (AU53). I would love to hear some discussion on this, for my small brain.
LOL You just opened a can of worms. Regarding Lincons, you must first know the series ( I guess as with any coin ). Some coins always come fully struck and sharp as a tack, the 1917 Philly for instance. Some come dull and from worn dies, and frankly not very attractive. Lets call this coin a 1923-S. To compare a vf of each other will be an eye opener. My first suggestion is buy the David Lange book, google it. It will really help you learn the series, but grading is an art. Browse Heritage and seek out the Lincolns most commonly sold in circulated grades, the 14-D, 09-S, SVDB, 31-S ......this would be a start. You are on your way to really getting comfortable when you start to split grades, and be able to spot the diff between say a 20 and a 30 or a 50 and a 58.......Thats how you will exceed in this hobby and pick up good values and exceptional coins.
AU-53 is gift that's all, AU-53 is gift that's all, when a TPG company gives a grade like AU-53 it is a gift because that certain coin has not been seen, or seen often in the AU+ grade - no body gives grades like this that are meaningful to raw coins. AU-50 or AU-55 are close enough for a raw coin and for most graded coins. An example, a 1916-P Standing Lib, quarter comes in and it is a nice AU coin. The more you (or the graders) look at it the better they like it at the AU level - they begin to believe, by looking at other AU-50 coins that it would not be fair to limit this one to AU-50 at the same time not at all certain it will AU-55, - thus the AU-53. I have had this kind of thing happen a couple of times. On the other hand AU-58 is easy, it's a mint state coin better than most MS-60, 61, 62's, (as far as eye appeal) but has some rub on the highest places. Interpretation: It was a nice enough coin to set aside, nicer than most, even though it as rub - this coin is always a winner for most series. The way I understand it IMO - split grades are a tool to elevate, or downgrade a coin that has something about it that seperates it from others that are known and generally reserved for coins that are rarer, different, or special in some way. I mean would you ever consider giving a AU-53 grade to a 1999 Washington Quarter???
tex it's kinda like Ben (bhp) says. But to understand it you have to first understand the history of grades. Grades have been around since the late 1800's. Back then they used adjectival grades like G, F, VF XF and Unc. That was good enough for a long time. But as time passed collectors began to realize that sometimes saying VF just wasn't really accurate when trying to describe the condition of their coins. So they began adding more adjectives to mark the differences. Very Fine became Almost very Fine, Very Fine, Good very Fine, Choice Very Fine. The same thing happened with the other grades. Along the way AU entered the scene. Then in 1948 along comes a guy named Shelton who was something of an authority on large cents. he decided to come up with a numerical system for coin grades with each assigned number indicating a value or price for the coin. This idea caught on and numbers began to be used instead of adjectives. Again over time, collectors began to think that even more numbers were needed to correctly describe the condition of the coins. And as time passed additional numbers were added to the system until we got to where we are today. Now let's go back a bit and look at VF again. They were using 4 different variations of the adjectival grade so About VF became VF20, VF became VF25, Good VF became VF30 and Choice VF became VF35. Now, to get to your question. Say you have a coin that you think is VF. But it's nicer than a lot of other VF's. So you say to yourself, the coin is nicer than VF20 but it's no way an XF. Then you ask is it nice enough to be VF25. You decide it is. Then you have to ask is it nice enough to be a VF30, again you decide it is. Then you move up one more notch - you always have to start at the bottom and work up, never from the top down. Because before a coin can move up a grade, it has to meet all of the standards of the lower grade first. Now when you are asking yourself if it is a VF35 you're getting close to XF territory, and you have already decided it's no way an XF. But if the coin is almost nice enough to be XF but not quite, then it's a VF35. If it isn't that close, then it stays a VF30. It works the same way with all the grades. That help any ?
Yes it does and I'm not trying to be sarcastic when I say this, but do all these additional grades benifit the seller or buyer? It seems like it's a way to get more money for the seller...deservedly so it most cases. Again I'm not complaining, but I like to "stir the pot" with groups like this, because I learn something with the responses.
IMO the only way it benefits the seller is if the coin is overgraded. Being more specific doesn't neccessarily benefit either party. And thats what these numbers are doing, being more specific. One VF might be better than another one, which is where the numbers help.
I guess the part that is eluding me is what things on a coin can bump it from a AU 53 to an AU 55, for example. I know each coin is different and the wear details/toning are different, but come on AU 53 to AU 55? Probably the price difference is not that much, but if it was, I would really like to understand that better. Or can there be a big price difference between two small grade jumps like that?
Yes, there can be a big price difference. But usually it is between the different MS grades. For example, a certain coin my be somewhat common in MS65, but MS66's are hard to find, so the difference between the 2 can be huge in some cases.
Depending on the coin there can be a big jump in prices from AU50, AU53, AU55 and AU58. I have the ANA grading book that has a description for AU50, AU55 and AU58. I try to go by those and to get AU53 - if I think it meets AU50, but not AU55, then I look at AU50 again. If I think it exceeds the AU50 - then I guess AU53. My ANA grading book stays at my desk all the time. And grading by pictures is even harder. And I for one would never recommend looking at graded key date coins for examples - those tpg's typically give them a bump. Sometimes that bump is ridiculous in my opinion. Looking at graded coins can help, but I would be leary of using key dates. Just my opinion. Also for certain coins you have strike characteristics - such as capped bust halves. You have to look at them and know them(and it still isn't easy)sometimes to get the grade. Plus there are usually specialized books on specific coins that can help.
NAC coin grading I was interested in bidding on some Morgan coins listed on E-bay that were graded MS 66 by NAC. I had never heard of NAC, so I asked the seller "Rockymountainmint" who is NAC and do they have contact information. They immediately banned me from bidding on their listed coins. I gues I got my answer. The coins did not look like MS 66. :high5:
Before you rest your case, consider this. Say you have 2 coins. One is graded MS65, and among all the coins just like it there are 1,857 examples graded as MS65. Let's say that coin sells for $1300. Now the other coin is graded MS66. And among all of the graded examples there are only 3 that are graded MS66 and there none graded higher. Now what do you think that MS66 coin should be worth ?
It could benifit the buyer or the seller or both or none. It could benifit the buyer or the seller or both or none. Like anything in life with variables (and what does not have variables) the truest answer to any and all questions is "it depends". Please don't think I'm being eleusive I am not but as one gets older this is one of thoses wisdoms that come through "trial by fire". Coin grading is not a thing that can be decided "once and for all" with obsolute certainty. There many people who cannot be satisfied with an answer that has uncertainty along with it - those folks are going to be continually frustrated when it comes to coin grading, coin pricing, just about everything in "the coin world". When you see an AU-53 grade in a coin by one of the big three TPG companies it's a coin that is probably special in some way - either a key date, rare, very rare, few are known, or few have been seen like that. Now just in the above explanation there are about 100,000 variables already built in so I hope you can see what I am trying to tell you. One of the best things you could do to understand this is - go to shops and shows, make a list and include notes on every AU-53 you can find - do that for a year or two and then write a new thread on you experience. That would be a fasinating topic!!!
GDJMSP, That's what I am saying, that some person/grader was able to assign a one point difference between 65 and 66? Would 100 other persons/graders also assign that same one point difference and now I am to pay some premium for the one point difference?
It's just a part of the game, you do not have to buy it, The 100 I'm sure would not all agree but if in a PCGS holder it don't matter as far as market goes, you would have to pay if you want it - then you have the top dog. It's just a part of the game, you do not have to buy it, or maybe you really should buy it, or, maybe you will decide to wait, or, maybe you have one also, or, this is intersting to learn, or, I don't want to play the 1-point differents game or, or, or, - This is what we call fun, many shades of grey. If this troubles you to much stick with raw coins. There is no "one answer" to your questions - grading and this market are subjective is the only concrete answer.
I am doing raws now, but will move up to slabs later. I had a nice purchase this week from AZ Jack. That was my first on line venture and was quite pleased with the coins.
One of the largest contested points of the grading system I have seen is that "Eye Appeal" is part of the factors of grade and no two people have the same set of eyes
