Just won my first 1908-d no motto

Right, but I know that a few members here normally like to bust my chops on things so I openly made mention of that and hopefully it puts an end to it.

 

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I realized something...

This is not to knock Mark Feld at all, but Mark is a dealer and he knows what it's like to buy for really good prices probably.

It's different when you're on the retail side. What may look like an appealing deal to a retail buyer may be chump change for Mark.

I feel it is very necessary to make this point known.

I could be wrong, like I usually am with Mark, but I hope this point here brings a little closure to the differences both Mark and I usually have..

Thank you

 

Maybe I'm missing it here, but when I look up this coin in the most recent Greysheets I have, bid on even a VF coin is right about $1300. Surely this coins is graded higher than that and I see nothing in the photos that indicate this is counterfeit or cleaned (though to be sure you'd of course need to inspect the coin in hand).

While I agree that I would much rather have a solid MS62-63 slabbed example for not much more money, if the sheet prices are accurate and the coin is authentic, it's hard for me to say that BNB got a bad deal. I would guess that even if lightly cleaned, the coin is still worth a decent premium over melt prices given the high demand for gold right now. While I'm not saying it's a home run deal either, but if BNB's goal was to buy a piece of no motto gold as low as he can find on the market, it seems he accomplished that goal.

 

I bought a raw coin on ebay once. An 1880 $10 lib and it turned out to be fake. I learned my lesson and I'll never do it again. My lesson only cost me $560.

 

BNB,

For the record, I don't have a problem with you gambling on coins. You will not find a bigger gambler on this website than me. Every time I play poker I put anywhere from $1K-$5K at risk. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. In relation to coins, I will routinely bid multiples of wholesale on coins "sight un-seen". If you ask Mark Feld, he will tell you that when I do that, I am violating one of the cardinal rules of responsible collecting. My response to him would be "Mark, you are right".

There are several reasons why I don't follow that rule. In order to buy coins "sight seen", you must travel to and from the coin show which costs money. In addition, I work in an industry that it is difficult to get off work. The only other option would be to pay a dealer that you trust to review you potential purchases for you and make buying recommendations. The problem with that is two fold. First, I don't know any dealers personally and second the coins I purchase are based on eye appeal which is highly influenced by personal preference. These are the reasons I don't follow Mark's recommendation. What you will not see me do is tell Mark that he is wrong or blame him for being negative. I fully understand that his advice is meant in a positive way to help me, but the fact is that it does not work for me.

If you were to follow this same philosophy, it would help you avoid the headache associated with what you perceive as constant criticism or negativity. We understand that you can make much more money buying raw gold than you can certified gold. The flip side is that you can lose much more as well. The reward goes up and so does the risk. If you are willing to play that game with your money and have the resources available to help you (dealer friends), then by all means go gamble. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

However, you can't expect the members of this forum, which you recognize as very conservative collectors, to agree or understand with what you are doing. The people here are good people and will automatically try and help someone who they feel is about to make a numismatic mistake that will cost them money. It is in their nature to warn you, and you are not going to be able to stop it. All you can do is change how you react to their opinion.

Honestly, the more defensively you react to these opinions, the more it appears that you don't have the confidence you claim to possess. If your end goal is to make money, it seems to me that the one person on this forum you would want to listen to is Mark Feld. He is a full time coin dealer and makes a living buying and selling coins utilizing knowledge and patience. I on the other hand am a gambler and if I sold my collection right now would probably lose 15-20% of my investment. I have a great collection of coins with exceptional eye appeal, but the simple fact is that I have overpaid on many occasions. As a collector that is acceptable, as a dealer it is not.

In the end it is up to you who's advice you take and how you decide to take it. I only hope that you can see that most of the forum members here are trying to help, including myself.

Paul

 

With all due respect, Paul, I want you to know that I hear you.
Mark, I hear you as well.
But, I have every right to mention or call out someone who I feel after repeated times, is giving me what I deem "a hard time".

See how you just explained your post right here? Thorough, gentle, and yet firm and informative.

That's how criticisms should be worded so that the other person doesn't take offense in any way to it.

I think the best quote in this situation is, "The best speakers are ones who can tell someone to go to hell in a way that makes the person want to enjoy the ride".. something like that..

There are so many other ways Mark could detail his consistent criticisms towards me like you just did. You know, the devil is in the details.

With all this said, Mark hopefully knows I have(i don't know why i'm saying this) a great level of respect for him personally from who I know him to be, However, some of his statements towards me is what I take issue with; not the person.

Now, I have a question to ask you, Lehigh.
Answer me honestly..

Do you think there is a general bias or favoritism on this forum towards the more senior established members?

Usually on a lot of forums their is and that's fine but I just want to know if you feel that is the case.

I spoke to this with a member from the forum last night.. I truly believe that the older and more years of experience dealers truly have their own clique. Anyone new or perceived wet behind the ears to them is either a) a threat or b) a victim and if I were to ever set up at a show one day(which i consider when the inventory is there), i would get harassed by the older dealers because of my age and experience level.

Still doesn't mean i can't sell a good coin at a fair price with a smile.
Thanks

 

Not Paul - but I personally don't think so. I think it is just that they are the ones with the years of experience and are trying to help us from making mistakes. I admit - there is nothing better than buying a raw coin, getting it graded and then selling it for a profit. I just do not think it is that easy. Then again most of us on this board don't have the kind of money you do - so we are more cautious. To me this is about the fun of collecting and not profit making. Mark has made some very good posts on collecting and there are some points(at least one I know off hand - selling coins) that I would argue with him about - but it just comes down to opinions. He has had more experience and his opinion is probably more on the money than mine. BUT still they are just opinions.

The only problem I had with your original post is 3 day return period - not enough time really to study the coin and to let others look at it. I do hope it works out for you.

 

BnB you might want to ask your dealer friends if they can submit that coin for you to PCGS next time they do a submission if you want.

I wonder why everyone passed on this ;

http://cgi.ebay.com/20-Gold-Piece-1...dual?hash=item255671b3b0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

That link.. That auction.. It's not normal.

The guy stopped his auction it seems.. What's up with that?

 

Without a doubt there is a core group of established members who dominate the forum. However, as you stated, that is true of every forum. Comparatively, this forum is the most accepting of newbies I have ever seen with PCGS being at the other extreme.

I remember when I first joined this forum over a year ago and how I was treated in the beginning. I recall that I had to earn the respect of the core members by making well written intelligent posts that demonstrated my knowledge and experience. This forum was for the most part anti toning when I got here. I showed up and started posting photos of toned coins everywhere. Shortly after, it was believed that I was a rainbow toned dealer who was going to use the site to start selling his wares. As time went on, it became more apparent to everyone that I was simply a passionate collector. Any negativity that I faced dissipated over time as everyone got to know me. That is not to say that everyone on this forum likes me. To the contrary, I am certain that a few members consider me an arrogant jerk, but my guess is even those members respect my knowledge. I can tell you without a doubt that many members have learned a great deal about toning over the last year and some have even changed their opinion about how they feel about toned coins.

On your present course, you are going to have a difficult time gaining the respect of the core members. Telling them they are wrong will only help to ensure that you remain on the outside. My advice would be to show them instead of telling them. Quietly accept their advice and then handle your business. Give the members honest updates on the progression of your sales/deals (both good and bad). Celebrate your victories and explain what you learned from your mistakes.

You asked if there is a bias. Yes there is. It is your responsibility to overcome that bias if that is your goal.

Paul

 

Ask Paul how hard of a time I used to give him.

Some people, I suspect, are better at accepting constructive criticism than others, and some people just need to learn for themselves.

I hope this transaction works out for you, BnB, I truly do....Mike

 

FYI, he also says this (bold emphasis mine):

At K's Raw Coins, customer satisfaction is our number one concern. For that reason, we offer a return or exchange policy on everything we sell except for bullion items.

Due to the volatile nature of the bullion market all platinum, gold, and silver bullion sales are final.

...

A 5% restocking fee may be charged on any orders returned."

Personally, I would be concerned that he considers this coin (like most people who buy/sell them) as bullion, but even if he doesn't it will cost you over $50 to return the coin.

Not a good gamble, IMO, but in the end it is up to each of us to evaluate or own risk tolerance.

Respectfully...Mike

 

+1

 

BNB, since I said I was through trying to help you, please consider this post as anything other than an attempt to help.

I am confused about your purchase of this coin. And not just because I thought you had said you were only going to buy certified coins and weren't going to buy off of Ebay.

When you first started posting here, you indicated that you wanted to buy coins as an investment. And granted, when you buy a gold coin of this type for as little as possible over spot, that is, in essence an investment. But it is an investment in gold, not rare coins. So why not buy a pure bullion coin, at much closer to spot, instead?

My guess is that you like the design of the Saint Gaudens $20 (I know that I and many others certainly do), which means there is a collecting bone or two in your body. And if you are buying as a collector, why not spend roughly 10% more for a much better/nicer example of a coin that you appreciate?

Anyway, whether you are collecting, investing or both, best of luck and enjoyment to you.

 

BNB

I've seen your posts and generally avoided responding because there are plenty of other people who have given you advice (most of it good, all of it well-intentioned). You have shown a thin skin over and over but a nice exuberance. When you ask people's opinions about your purchases, you need to be prepared to receive honest feedback. My simple advice to you is the following:

1. Assume 9 out of 10 posters on here know more than you about coins. After all you've only been doing this a few months.

2. Expect to make mistakes. You are new in a field full of people that have been doing this a long time. It seems like you assume that a lot of the veterans are somehow dishonest or somehow trying to take advantage of you. The more likely explanation is that they are honest and know the market better than you. There are dishonest sellers -- most are on E-Bay selling raw coins. There are plenty of honest dealers on E-Bay.

3. There is a price limit that you should set for yourself for sight-unseen , raw coins. It should be closer to $100 than to $1000.

4. Practice humility. You will make mistakes and if you are still collecting in a year, you will recognize how many mistakes you have made.

5. Don't take cheap shots at Mark Feld. He is probably the most knowledgeable guy on here and we all benefit from his experience.

6. Enjoy the hobby. It is your money but don't expect to get accolades for finding deals on the Bay (most of the "deals" aren't).

 

I appreciate your hit piece and thanks for your backhanded advice, unsolicited but well taken.(By the way, I asked for approval, not advice on this particular thread) Anyway I believe even though I'm new, I hopefully will get respected just as equally as someone in the business for 40+ years..

I don't expect you to think I am as smart in coins as a veteran, but I believe I deserve respect 100% across the board because of the human element.

You're making an issue here out of something that is not even what I'm talking about on this thread. You could hold off on your posts or not, I am not stopping you, but I do want you to know that I value respect VERY highly.

Call it thin skin, I see it as a passion for defending myself from onwanted attackers. I know that may sound silly to you, but honestly I don't know half you guys.. So I have to protect my own self at all costs first.

Also, don't think I don't listen to these guys.. They may not know it, but I do. Just by me stating this should be a mere testament to them that I am willing to learn.

In retrospect, I haven't done horrible at all with my coin collection regardless if you want to put me down or not about it.

I'll always know that I am a capable, honest, hard working investor and a collector. More investor > collector, but both still..

So I'm not here to argue with ANY of you, but... I do know when I don't like how someone is talking to me, damn I speak up. That's where I'm different than most.. Most people nowdays are passive.. I don't like how some advice makes me feel, so in order to relieve that discomfort, I speak up.

I hope this doesn't bother you, but I value my self worth very highly while still maintaining a great amount of respect for The Penny Lady, Mark Feld, Doug, and others.

Enjoy

 

I love how you worded this..



Total kudos..



However, I don't want some to think I'm telling some veterans they are straight up wrong with their 30+ years of knowledge. No no no.

I am letting them know POLITELY that I will not accept a certain behavioral pattern towards me that has been ongoing from the start. If they respect that, they either back off or politely make the change and I'm all ears.

I still can't accept the fact that just because someone has greater years on me means they have the right to put me down. No way, sorry. I know some people accept that abuse, but it's abuse in a funny way and I don't accept it nor should I and nor should anyone.

With that said, I have stated a million times that I respect Mark for the person he is. Heck, I respect all of you for the people you are.. But, I will sometimes have a rebuttal to advice that I passionately disagree with. I can't speak my mind freely? It's America and freedom of speech is at the core of who I am. I'm not going to be rude about it, but nor should I hold back either.

Hopefully, some of the very intelligent people on the forum who have been doing for a while will see my good intentions as well and if they can possibly just tweak an itty bitty piece of their phraseology, I won't have any problem working with them in any capacity. It's how you say things in life, not what.

 

Mark, from the bottom of my heart, I appreciate how your coming off to me right now. This is the nice Mark that I've always wanted to hear from.. It's inspiring. You're such a smart guy and if you can inspire like you did just here, I don't know, you can be something even bigger.

So thank you Mark, I really do appreciate your nicer tone. It means a lot in a world that is so filled with hate. God bless.

 

In bold. Absolutely insane.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Feedback is absolutely meaningless. Do you realize how easy it is for crooks on ebay to rack up thousands of positive feedback? Just the other day I caught a guy buying Chinese replicas OFF EBAY and re-selling them on ebay! But nobody was catching it because he was selling so many, genuine, cheaper, modern stuff that it all blended in. AND THE BUYERS RECEIVING THE FAKES DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER THEMSELVES so they were leaving positive feedback for him. He's still out there selling, BTW.

In coins, it's safe to assume that the majority of positive feedback is left by very uneducated people who don't really know what they received. They just know they received 'something', in a timely manner. That = positive feedback.

I just received a coin today. The seller has over 5k feedback. 100% positive with a couple neutrals. Should be no problem right? Wrong.

I get the coin. It's not even what was pictured. There's an obvious gash on the obverse that's been filled!! Now I have to waste time sending it back and getting a refund. But the feedback was great!

If you want an honest opinion as to why people seem to be coming across harshly, I will give you several.

First off, you came here as a newbie not that long ago. You average 10 posts a day. You went from wanting to learn, to being a near, self proclaimed expert in a very short period of time. But yet you keep buying expensive coins and then throwing out posts concerning them, looking for approval from the boards. It's like you're throwing crap at a wall and seeing what will stick.

Aside from that, most here don't care to look at coins from an investing standpoint because of the difficulty and would rather just enjoy collecting. When you start talking money and profits concerning anything, most of the time conversations will go down hill.

Aside from that, right or wrong, you give the impression of being a spoiled kid, who did not work real hard for the cash you're throwing at coins. Some may find that irritating. Also most people do not like to discuss what they paid for something in an open forum. Many people may find that distasteful as well.

To constantly focus on the idea of investing, buying cheap and looking for someone less educated to take advantage of to one extent or another, isn't necessarily the most popular thing to discuss. You're asking for controversy from the get go. You should not be surprised when a thread takes a turn for the worst.

You did not purchase this $20 coin to stash away in a collection. In a week or two, you will have it back on ebay telling us what it's selling for.

You also come across as being naieve because it is apparent you don't realize the seriousness and real danger of fakes circulating around out there. Especially on ebay. Many times using the actual metal content from cheaper, real coins that have been melted. So the metal content may or may not be correct.

Now lets assume the $20 IS real. Ok, easy enough. Now you probably should send it in to be graded because it's very likely the next buyer would want a coin that expensive to be in a TPG slab. Then that's a whole nother battle. It's very likely it will come back in the purple, problem slab as AU-details, cleaned, like they are doing with almost everything these days. Which makes it an authenticated, but problem coin. Well, now someone spending that much money would rather have a non-problem coin.

The fact is that almost ANY coin that could be sent in to a TPG (especially higher dollar ones), that could be encaspsulated to increase it's value, have very likely already been sent in. To me, it looks like sellers dump most of their problem coins on ebay hoping to rip off someone who doesn't know any better. Across ALL types.
My thinking on loose, higher dollar coins goes more like why isn't it in a slab? The true, good quality, loose coins are mixed in with all the problem coins that may or may not have been rejected at some time. Now, you may not mind that. But the potential buyers you're going to want to sell to, will. And it will affect what the coin brings.

On top of that, it would seem you could use a lesson in humility. You don't need to prove anything. Just live and learn with everyone else.

 

Yeah but you know what, call what you're doing honest feedback, I just see it as discounting and that's the bottom line. I can read through people's words and can tell instantly if someone is giving me grief because they are concerned about me OR they despise the hell outta me. I can tell you're leaning towards the later.

That's fine, because hate is all over the internet. I just don't believe in it.
I treat everyone with respect UNLESS they step on my shoes.

You have not said one favorable thing in your post and all it seems like to me is "bla bla bla, your spoiled, bla bla bla, put me down more, bla bla bla" and I just tune out. You think you're doing a good thing by venting your concerns but in reality, it just makes me not want to read your posts or associate with you.

Now, the alternative is, optimism.
There is too much darn pessimism on these forums along with hate filled rants. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!

I don't care how old you are and how inexperienced I am, these ill will rants MUST STOP.. They drive people away farther than you can ever imagine.

Rarely do I hear someone here say, "Not all raw coin dealers are bad, sure fakes exist, but I trust ebay in filtering out the good from the bad" You know?? I don't see the world as cynically as you do apparently.. And that's fine, you can be negative and pessimistic towards me but don't expect me to "learn to adopt a pessimistic attitude like you". I just won't.

Now, regarding paying for coins. What the heck are you talking about? I don't ask people how much they usually pay. Jesus, maybe one time I did, but I tell you people ALL the time what I pay for coins.. Why, because I don't live in a world of fear like you do and I am VERY transparent or at least try to be with people regardless how NEW i am or not.

Man, some of you are just downright cruel. No really. It's all ego. You hear that.. This is ego right now talking. Trying to belittle me and say I don't know what I'm doing , you're better than me, etc. Come on! Just take things at face value ie I bought a $1259 gold coin because I like no mottos and wanted a gold coin. Stop with your darn negativity! Body bag, au details, nothing but negative chatter from you. Negative negative negative NEGATIVE. Enough.

Just enough. This world needs positivity. Not all raw coins are fake. Just because a coin hasn't been certified does not automatically mean it's fake or it's likely to be. Nobody knows the answers either. Just because you have years more on me in coins does not mean you're right about this coin coming back in a body bag. It's all pure speculation but I know that I am under the premise that I'm getting a gold coin and if the 5-10% chance that it's fake, I'll deal with that, but with all this doom some of you people are pushing on me, you're gonna jinx the coin and make it fake! jeez. so much doom and gloom. just let's get along ok and cut this rhetoric out.. i don't want to be talked to like i'm the new guy, just talk to me like a person and then i'll be very happy.

thanks for listening, that's honest back to ya

hey by the way, vess, i have no clue where you got this "self proclaimed expert" title you label me. i'm just sharing what i've learned, is that a problem ? sometimes people think it's good to always keep ones mouth shut when they are new and act the part.. but it's hard when i see so many cross-overs with this and my past background . oh and also, i don't plan on reselling this 2 months from now, i'm not in this to make a quick buck ok? just want to clear that up. mark, i know i said i wouldn't buy from ebay but i have made an exception regarding this gold coin(and that buffalo but i quickly amended that deal once tougher questioning regarding the state of the nickel was thrown at the seller)