Trust Issues I have with a lot of dealers

Now, I am not expecting this post to get nominated.

I just want to make my point heard.

Lately, from my experiences over ebay, I am learning that this world breeds a lot of crooked people. I have seen quite a good share of people selling raw coins overstated and in particular, this auction right here with this penny http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-S-VDB-Linc...b0fb&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262#ht_500wt_1182

If you go to toolhaus http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User= jabetz+&Dirn=Received+by&ref=home

and read his overall feedback, this guy has a habit of overstating his coins.

It's too bad because these practices are deceptive and bluntly speaking, rude to the consumer. They attempt to insult our intelligence.

That's why certifying coins came into practice. To weed out the bs'ers from the real deals.

So, this post is kind of here to express dismay in how many dealers out there cheat to win and my hope is one day, this will stop. But, it probably won't! lol.

 

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Unfortuneately this isn't something new. The coin business is just like any other buisness. There are good people, bad people, and just outright crooked people. It's been this way for a loooong time. You just have to sort the wheat from the chaff. It's not going to change ever i'm afraid...

 

I wouldn't consider 99.9% of the people on Ebay coin dealers to begin with. Just because someone has a few coins for sale hardly makes them a qualified dealer to be respected.
Guy~

 

Ebay, is what it is. Buyers need to realize there are thousands and thousands scam artists out there, and it's up to you to determine who is honest and who is not, period. Whether it's blurry photos, boastful statements, half baked stories about their dying Grandma... it's endless. The decision you have to make is does this coin or note or whatever, mean that much to me to fork over my hard earned money for. YOU have the final decision, and if that decision is wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself. Ebay can be a crapshoot, but you are the one hitting that buy button! Think about it.

 

It is a shame when dealers intentionally overstate the grades on their coins.

I can't tell you how many times I've been looking at 2x2s at shows where the dealer has XF written on the 2x2 and is selling at the XF price, when I know that the coin is clearly a VF coin maximum.

Of course, some dealers do this intentionally to maximize their profits, but others just don't know how to grade every series either or are using a different grading standard. I've seen it the other way too, especially with old time dealers at the local shows who use more traditional grading standards than the third party graders use today. I love it when I see their 2x2s and find many coins marked G or VG that I know would certify as a F or VF.

So again, it's not always intentional and the grades aren't always overstated. But yeah, it would be a more enjoyable hobby without the scammers

 

If you are just now learning that the world has a lot of crooked people you either: 1. Are very young and haven't really learned much about the world, or 2. Are incredibly naieve.

The world is full of crooked, greedy, deceptive people. Its human nature. That is why we as collectors need to arm ourselves with superior knowledge through reading, studying, participating in a forum like this with knowledgeable people willing to teach, etc.

Just as there are many people out there willing to deceive to make a buck, there are as many greedy people out there thinking that they are making a great catch and duping the seller. There's a sucker born every minute; and the corollary is: There's a sucker that bids every minute on Ebay.

 

I also often see over grading, but who hasn’t? Some dealers do it on purpose while others just don’t know how to grade correctly. Remember not every dealer works for PCGS or NGC, most of the sellers on ebay are not even part of the PNG or PCGS/ NGC authorized dealers. I sell tokens on ebay, but I am scared to sell UN certified U.S. coins on ebay, because my grading skills are not up to par and I don’t want negative feedbacks because I am still learning to grade correctly.
As a newer and younger dealer, how do I accommodate buyers when I want to start selling noncertified coins on ebay with regards to grading? I have noticed that many coin sellers on ebay state that they are not a professional grader and that the buyer makes the final decision of the grade from the photos provided. Some sellers also give grade ranges ie: AU-MS, but doesn’t this just contradict the grading practice? When I buy a coin I want to know what the grade might be, not a grade range of AU50-MS62, twelve points is just too much especially with those pieces with big “price jumps” between grades.
Some ebay sellers say that the buyer is the judge, and they don’t accept returns. I stay away from these kinds of people. What do you think? What is the proper practice for ebay sellers who want to sell non-certified U.S. coinage?
Also does a buyer have the right to leave negative feedback on ebay for a seller who sells a coin MS and the buyer sends it into a grading service (one of the big 4) and it comes back AU? Shouldn’t the buyer make the opinion of the grade prior to buying it? I have seen situations where a coin is bought (sold as MS) and the buyer just takes the word that it is MS then they sent it in and it comes back AU and they are mad because they bought a AU coin at MS price, but shouldn’t they have been suspicious that the coin would come back AU in the first place? Another form of crook is the buyer who buys a coin, sends it in to be graded and when the coin comes back graded lower than expectations the coin is cracked out and returned.
“Read the coin, not the label!”

 

It's only an insult to our intelligence if we know that is what they are doing. 70% of those who buy coins at a shows or on ebay don't know what they are buying. The state quarters has got a lot of folks interested in coins and now they are buying everything that looks shiny and has a price on it they can afford. I know plenty of guys who will pay $20 bucks for a coin without blinking an eye and none of them realize that the coin is only worth $6.00. They just like the coin and $20 bucks seems reasonable.

The practice of over pricing/grading these days is like shooting fish in a bucket. Folks have to put food on the table and that includes dealers and ebay sellers ....caveat emptor ..you aren't robbing them at gun point. If a guy pulls out the cash and pays the price marked...who are you to argue ..just smile and say thanks for your business.

 

Just because they have to make money doesn't mean it is right.

 

No, not unless the dealer guaranteed it would do so. You are buying the coin, not a guaranteed grade (TPG slab) equivalent. If you bought a coin as AU and it graded MS, would you send the seller the difference? Doubtful for most.

Every seller should accept returns ( except maybe already slabbed by TPG) if there was a hidden fault, or not genuine, or blatantly misrepresented such as saying "not cleaned" and it was, etc. Otherwise, if they say that, then one should either avoid if one is unsure, or if they feel they can evaluate properly, accept the terms.

A decent limited return time of 7-10 days after receipt should eliminate this, except for coins which are rendered non-genuine. They should always be accepted as returnable with no limit.

IMO.

Ebay is like a casino. No one puts a gun to a buyer's head and forces them to buy, but if one loses, you can't go to the window and ask for your money back because you made a mental error. If one is knowledgeable and cautious, Ebay is a wondrous place.

Jim

 

XF money, VF details with problems, usually cleaning. Or worse. :hammer:

The US series, particularly early or valuable coins, is picked over. Very few good raw coins. Almost all of the real deal coins are slabbed. Exception: early copper from top dealers.

As far as "using a different standard", let's all use the ANA grading guide.

Which helps understand the adage "We don't have to agree on grade - only price."

 

BNB, IMHO, you need to stop buying coins from eBay. Good coins are rarely offered there. Start working with REAL dealers, not eBay wannabees...Mike

p.s. Mark Feld would be a good place to start, and there are other "good" dealers who don't need to hide behind eBay.

 

Ok thanks. I contacted Mark actually but didn't have the one coin I was looking for. Heritage and Mark might be the best bet for me.

 

Patience, my friend. Good coins don't grow on trees.

 

Unless you're into wooden nickels

 

Always take the sellers grade with a grain of salt, look at the pic and determine it for yourself. If the pictures posted are not good enough for you to grade the coin yourself, then pass it by. If you go ahead and buy it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

Say you are walking in an alley one day (day or night) and someone smack you up beside your head and takes your coin collection while on your way to your store.

Would the police say"sorry buds, its your fault, nobody asked you to walk this way".

Would you accept that or respond to the officer and tell him to get that scum bag and return your precious?

 

I kinda hear what this guy is saying..

Look, overgrading dealers hurt our hobby. Mainly because they make us vigilant towards coins. We have to be very defensive when buying. In an ideal world, we would TRUST the coin dealer and that's that. Not in this world. Trust is almost a bad word.

 

A lot of good points made here for you to consider.

Ebay is not full of coin dealers as pointed out. Lots of sellers but not dealers.
Coin shows you at least see the coins. If you think it's overgraded walk on or as I have done many times POLITELY express your concerns with the dealer.
A good dealer will not take offense. I have bought many Two Cent Pieces over the years and had dealers knock the price down when I have discussed it with them. Had more than one tell me I knew more about them than they did. Probably true as I have more than most of them.

The dealer I work for has a tendency to over grade and he knows it. Not to rip people off as much as he "wants" it to be a higher grade. My coworker and I often downgrade the coins ourselves and price accordingly.
We send the majority of key dates in for slabbing. As much for authenticating as anything else. This way there are no questions asked. It's legit and you see the coin.


To me the best way to buy coins IS to see them in person. Anything else is a chance you take no matter how reputable the dealer. Different dealers treat it different ways.
I've dealt with a few that I've formed relationships with and not been disappointed.

Even when you get down to folks that have been dealers for a long time, like it or not, they want to sell coins. My boss is getting older, more impatient and downright rude at times. I see it and try to "run interference" at times.
The thing is that he wants to make the big deals and messing around for half an hour to sell $30 worth of coins doesn't make him money.
Is it right? No not really. Does it happen? A lot because it's still a business.

I ALWAYS try to buy something from a dealer if they spend ANY time with me. A thank you for the time as it were. Doesn't have to be much but helps get your foot in the door as a customer. Once they know you are serious prices tend to drop and you buy more.

It can be a very odd business but taking the time to form a relationship with a dealer can be very rewarding in the long run.

 

The coin market in general and Ebay in particular is the Wild West of business. It is what it is and there's no use getting upset about it. You have to go into it expecting that every seller will talk-up his inventory and every buyer will talk it down. Most of the time, we can go through life relying on brand names with bar coded prices and not think too hard about what we purchase. The coin market is what all other markets were 150 years ago and you have to really work and pay attention to details to make a decent purchase.