i've been looking recently at collecting some attractive coins, but whenever i window shop on these two types i just get stunned. i cannot stand bag marks, i think dings,wear, or scratches are more attractive. my question is this- does anyone have a picture of thier own coin or a link to someone else's unmarked coin from these series'? i dont mean tilted to avoid showing, i mean actually without the marks altogather. i understand that the mint and banks didnt take much care in these coins but i just can not stand how ugly they are, dont get me wrong i LOVE the designs of the coins but i just cant get past how ugly bag marks are. the other thing i dont understand is that these coins have been graded higher than MS 65 for example http://cgi.ebay.com/1879-S-Morgan-D...ryZ39466QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem there appear to be 2 bag marks under the eye (look close). bag marks IMO should not be treated as a standard (acceptable and ignored during grading) part of the coin since they are produced AFTER minting, yet they slide on these 2 types ( and it seems ONLY these 2 types). a 1925-d nickel may be graded higher than it looks becuase they were usually weakly STRUCK, not usually worn. maybe someone can explain this as well, am i just too picky in my grading? its possible, i was amazed when i saw some AU coins that were professionally graded.
wanted to add, dont use the coin i linked as the basis for all i said. that is by far the best morgan ive seen.
My first stop for reference when coin-shopping is Heritage . They've got a *huge* database of relevant information - prices realized, great pics, population numbers, etc. Registration is free and gives you access to all of it. Your opinion of grading standards illustrates the completely subjective nature of grading, even within the "professional grading" (by that I mean Top 4 grading services only, as the rest are completely value-driven) community. The Top 4 retain, IMO, somewhat objective standards and altruistic motives, yet even within their own walls they differ from grader to grader. Given such a subjective environment, like any other investment medium, I think the market drives the grade as much as the grade drives the market. That's the bottom line of "gradflation," IMO. Everyone wants to make money, and that's accomplished very easily by just increasing the grade of what you already own. Your rather strict standard, although as "right" to my sensibilities as it is to yours, reflects a "perfect world" scenario where people aren't making a living either selling coins or grading them. It's tough to evaluate the actual surface of the particular coin in question with the pictures provided. I don't see the obverse bagmarks you refer to, but I see enough crap on the reverse field to disqualify it from MS68. But, that's just you and me. NGC thinks it's 68, and it's an admittedly gorgeous coin. In Hertiage's history of similar sales are a couple with what I consider noticeable marks as well. That particular issue bothers me because there's well over 100 '79-S's graded MS68 between PCGS and NGC, yet the Buy It Now for that auction is a realistic number based on prices realized. That's the market-driven part of the grade/price matrix - people are willing to pay MS68 prices for a coin that looks like that, so NGC grades it that way. That's as much due to the uneducated status of much of the market as it is to the relative rarity of the coin. I have a few Top 4 slabbed coins that cause me discomfort to see the grade they made.
To get coins without bagmarks you going to have to go to the high grades and that will also be $$$$$...The coins were put in bags and after being in there with many other I don't think there are many that came out without the marsk. Speedy
There is something that many forget when grading coins - it is relative. Most experienced collectors realize that you have to grade coins from different years and different mints individually. In other words, an 1879-S Morgan is not graded based on the same criteria that an 1879-O is graded on. Each of those two coins is graded very differently. But what is not always considered is that you also have to grade each denomination differently as well. For example - silver dollars are large and heavy. And when they were ejected from the press and fell into the hopper the coins would naturally bang together. This leaves marks, sometimes large marks because of the weight & size of the coins. But if you think about the same thing happening with dimes - there are much fewer marks because the coins are very light and small in size. Bottom line is that when grading, you make more allowances for the large heavy coins than you do the small light ones. By the way - keep looking - there are MS69 Morgans out there too
i've searched ebay numerous times, only found a few attractive ones. most look like sandpaper was applied (in MS condition)
I agree with the author about bag marks, though I am far more accepting of them. I like to visit herritage to "window shop" for near perpect Morgans. Good luck in your quest for the grail!
these 2 lovely effects http://cgi.ebay.com/1880-CC-Morgan-...329186715QQcategoryZ39465QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/1882-CC-MORGAN-...331123286QQcategoryZ39465QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Two good examples of your point. Those coins shouldn't make their grades - a Barber dime in that condition wouldn't be 63-64 - but between GDJMSP's wise point about grading types differently and market pressures, they do.
I asked the question I did because there is a difference between a break in luster and a bag mark. A bag mark, at least by my definition, is an actual dent in the metal. A break in luster is not a dent in the metal, but it causes the light to reflect differently which makes it easily seen. In pics, a break in luster will often almost look black, or at the least a darker shade of grey than the rest of the coin's surface. Breaks in luster make up the majority of the marks you see on coins. But they are nowhere near as damaging to the coin, or its grade, as bag marks are. That is why you can so often see coins graded MS64 - 65, even 66 with marks and why so many people think the coins are not worthy of the grade. But the marks are breaks in luster and the metal of the coin has not been disturbed or dented. You can cause a break in luster by gently laying a coin down on a soft cloth or placing it in a coin cabinet. Dipping a coin also causes breaks in luster. They can also be caused by two coins rubbing against each other in a bag. Which is why many call them bag marks. But if you only wish to collect coins without these marks - you better have a lot of money Because they are few and far between.
