Long Beach Coin Show Report

Hello guys.. It's Saturday and I have made the early decision not to attend the third and final day of the show(even though it will be the best day probably).

This won't be a very long report like some are, just because I really don't feel like covering a lot.

The show was not that good.

I say that respectfully and to all the dealers who showed up, my respect is with you.

The public just didn't seem enthusiastic here. There were not a lot of people at the show and after speaking to numerous dealers, they were very disappointed with the business there and some were even packing it up early.

I would give this show a 5/10.

Most the dealers were charging very high prices as what is expected and very few actually treated me respectfully and with open arms(Usually I like those types, makes me wanna buy from them)

I did however bid on a 1909-s vdb xf40 from the Heritage Live lot for $1265 paid total. It's a gorgeous brownie. I also got a 4oz silver $50 bill. I love those for some reason.

So, I didn't leave empty handed. However, the general environment on the floor was not very optimistic like I've seen at some shows before.

I hope whoever went found a great "deal" and did well.

I really am losing faith in coin dealers as a whole. This is a becoming a big problem. Some dealers are plain rip offs and don't deserve to even be dealing in my opinion. I know that is harsh of me to say, but come on.. Do they think we're stupid?

$1800 for an Ms64 1908 No Motto.. Give me a break.

The days of finding a dealer that will sell to you at bid is hard. Sure dealers have to make a living, but what KIND of living do some of these people make? I wouldn't be surprised if they have yachts with the prices they charge on some of their coins. Give me a break...

For a buyer, Heritage is the only place I'll go now.. I don't even know if going to shows is good for me anymore after seeing the prices being thrown around here. It's just disgraceful in my opinion.

Anyway, enuff out of me. This is my report. If I do go to a show in the future after this, I need to build up relations with the "Fair and honest' dealers which do exist but are very few.

BNB Out

PS: I hope you had a good time Mike .. Good seeing you, Charmy(Looking CharmYng as usual )

 

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Dark Brown 1909-s vdb XF40 NGC



*Very hard to take snaps of this coin due to its color**

 

While I could not attend, I did participate in the Heritage Live Auction for Paper Money...What I saw was increased interest in High Grade Small Size Notes with quite the fever!

I hope you got a few good lots to add to your collection? For me it was 3 and a 4th pending.

RickieB

 

Congrats on getting your first 1909-S V.D.B.!!!! Very cool!!

I only went today (Saturday) and I found it to be just about as busy as the Long Beach show usually is on a Saturday with the same few east coast dealers who leave the show on Friday night not present.

I disagree with BNB's take on coin dealers though. Sure, this weekend the prices on all gold coins, especially common date collector grade St. Gaudens coins were going to be much higher than say last month given the recent run up in gold prices and the huge jump in demand on these. But I know there are still plenty of deals to be had at the show.

Not sure when you got used to paying Greysheet bid for your coins, but for nice coins I think that it would be extremely rare to buy at those levels. I do think that the average price level charged by dealers seems high because for many coins dealers are charging the same levels for coins they did last year.

That by itself wouldn't be a problem, but when I go to sell coins to dealers, they are not paying anywhere near the same as they did the year before. Makes it hard for me as a collector to pay the going retail price for a coin when I know that the same dealers will not buy my coins even at the going wholesale prices.

Of course there are a few dealers that just charge crazy money on their coins, especially on the modern stuff, but I just stay clear of them. For example, I was looking for a few 1996 Mint Sets at the show. Found one dealer selling for $11 per set, another selling for $15 per set and yet another selling for $23.50 per set!!! Guess who I bought from!!!!

Anyways, I had a good time at the show, bought a few coins and sold a few too. Was able to also pick up a 1908-S Indian Head Cent graded PCGS AU58 which will complete the circulated portion of my grading set!!! Finally!

 

I have heard mixed reports about the LB show for several years. The dealers that stick to their guns and don't lower prices to turn inventory over are the ones that say things are bad. The ones that turn inventory and get fresh stuff seem to say things are good.

Anyhow glad you got the svdb, that is on my short list of coins I would like for my album.

 

Yeah, well.. you heard my opinion and Illini420's.

To me, I only will pay less than grey sheet bid if possible and the only way to get that is through Heritage.

I think I did very well on this XF40 for $1265.. Don't you?

 

As you know, the August 2009 Greysheet says bid is $1250 for this one, so you didn't pay less than sheet here, but pretty close

I think you're on your way to having a collection of mediocre coins if you hold firm to only paying around greysheet bid. While you will be able to occasionally find a few diamonds in the rough at those price levels, for the really really nice coins you will usually have to step it up a bit. In looking at my collection, my absolute favorite coins are almost always the coins that I've paid way over greysheet prices and sometimes even over PCGS Price Guide prices.

 

Well thanks for that interesting piece of advice.. I don't know why you would say something like that because it's definitely not true in all cases.

I have paid close to grey sheet bid on most of my coins(KEYWORD ***MOST***) and they are beautiful coins, not mediocre so I don't really know where you're getting that from..

Maybe you're making a generalization? If that's the case then yes, most people in most situations who don't know that buy at bid from retailers will get mediocre coins, but then you have people like me who search every crevice, bargain till my eyes bleed with charm that get those prices.. Of course, not everyone is a negotiator like me not to say I'm the best, but I can be pretty darn good at times

 

Ditto on the getting nice stuff for the grade, I think every keeper in my collection I paid some pretty steep pricing to get them. I could have bought dozens of examples at bid but none of them had eye appeal.

 

Yeah again, I don't know about that. Maybe that's how you like to do business but I believe otherwise..

I believe that beautiful coins CAN be found at bid or maybe sometimes below. I really do.. I see NO value in paying a darn premium for something that I'll have to wait another 5 years just to break even no way no how.

It's not easy finding what I talk about,but it's possible. Let's see, my 1937 d 3 leg was $1015, between bid and ask. My 1928 peace dollar was $575( ms62 so i have no idea but i THINK it's about right), my 1909-s vdb, between bid and ask, my ms65 morgan, $920, below bid. etc etc. These are all gorgeous coins too. So this theory that you have to pay a premium for nice coins is not a model i subscribe to and in my opinion just isn't great business.

But hey, everyone is different and that's fine, no disrespect.

Hey Mike, btw, I saw those PCGS charts. very cool

 

BNB, yes, my above post was a generalization. Was just trying to say that if you are firm in only paying up to Greysheet bid prices, you will miss out on many many beautiful coins that are probably worth the higher prices being asked by the dealers.

Sure, it's possible to build a good looking collection at greysheet prices, but it will be very very tough, and I don't think you can do that just through Heritage unless you go to lot viewing and see the coins in hand first. Remember, many dealers make their living by attending these lot viewings and buying up the nice coins that sell at fair prices for their clients. So yes, it was my generalization that if a coin is only selling at wholesale price in an auction, it has likely been looked at by many dealers and passed by them as not being that great of a coin to be worthy of a strong bid. It is rare that a really spectacular coin sells for a really low price, but it can and does happen from time to time of course.

Where you can probably do really well is if you can take the time to view the auction lots ahead of time in person, especially those coins that are really nice looking coins in the $250-$1000 range that look great in hand but have poor online images. Coins in this price range may not be looked at as much or as closely as some of the higher dollar coins and you may get lucky. Scored a couple of great looking coins really cheap that way, even though it was unfortunate for the consignor.

 

I felt the same way when I started out. For example, when I was buying the my avatar coin, 1909 MS66RD IHC, I saw examples priced from around $1100 all the way up to $2000. Mine was towards the higher end of that range for sure, and it was difficult for me to pay a several hundred dollar premium for a coin in the same grade at that time. But right now I don't regret it one bit as I know there are folks out there who will pay me a premium for a really great coin that is high end for the grade. Maybe not the best example since MS66RD isn't in the greysheet.

So, another example was when I went to buy an MS65 1909-O Half (only 6 graded by PCGS so I couldn't be too picky). At the time I was buying, bid-ask was $3700-$4000. I saw one example that was a good looking coin, accurately graded I thought but just had average luster for the grade, and the asking price was $3950, not entirely unreasonable. Another example that was available at the time was on the market for $5600!! The coin was screaming with luster though and had beautiful toning and an excellent strike for the date/mm. It was initially hard for me to pay the extra $$ for the better MS65, but I ended up working a deal for just under $5000. Again, I don't regret it for a second and I've already been offered more than my purchase price for the coin and I passed.

Just trying to point out that if you pay the darn premium now, it doesn't mean that you have to wait 5 years to break even. You just have to make sure that if you are paying the darn premium now that you're doing it for a good reason and not just because the dealer is overcharging. If you're paying extra for the right reasons, when you go to sell you'll most likely have buyers willing to pay the darn premium too

Of course, it can be hard to tell whether a darn premium is justified though, I've been on the wrong side of that too, so it's not a sure thing!!

You mean the Greysheet charts, right?? I looked at a few of them today too, pretty cool to see the price history of some of these, especially the classic commemoratives. Some of them were worth 3-5 times current prices 15-20 years or so ago!!!! I figured you'd like those

 

Yeah no worries man. Anyway, good job on those buys yourself
I will always be scouting HA.com for deals since that is the last hope I believe.

 

There is a sight-unseen bid of $1620 posted by a dealer on the electronic exchange. Based on that, an ask of $1800, whiel on the high side, doesn't sound as if it deserved nearly that much negativity from you.

 

BNB, please take these following comments in the spirit I intend them - purely to help offer some advice to someone who is new and a bit naive to the coin industry. So please keep an open mind and know that I say these things to try and help, not to criticize.

Keep in mind, you came as a newbie to coins in a down market and may be getting some good deals right now, but seriously you might want to quiet that ego of yours a bit and listen to your coin "elders" and not be so quick to judge. Yes you can get some good deals right now, even at Heritage, but that won't always be the case, no matter how hard you look. And it's certainly not a good idea to limit your options so quickly by saying you'll only buy from Heritage - that is, to be honest, pretty silly. There are many good quality dealers out there, you just need to find a few in your series that "fit" well with your style, values, morals, personality - and wallet.

For the most part, you will need to pay higher prices to get quality. Remember, dealers generally buy from Grey sheet, so how can anyone expect them to sell at Grey sheet? Especially key dates, high quality, and just plain hard to find coins will usually be higher than Grey sheet, so yes shop around, but be sure you are getting the best quality for the price you are paying. Look very very closely at those coins you are buying. You still have a lot to learn, and there is so much more you don't know than what you do know right now.

I enjoy your enthusiasm and eagerness to get the best deal, that is what we all try to do - but you also need to build some solid relationships with some good dealers, so don't start out bashing them just because their prices seem too high for you. I don't know any dealers that have yachts or live high on the hog, especially right now. Sure it's ok to be a bargain hunter, but remember, in the end you really really do get what you pay for.

p.s. What Mike said about make sure you do lot viewing of any Heritage coin you buy - that is a MUST! You got lucky with your Heritage purchase but in my experience, Heritage's photos (both in the catalog and online) are usually better than the actual coin. Their photos don't seem to show a coin's flaws or issues (especially spots and dings) very well, so you absolutely need to see their coins in person before placing bids.

On the other hand, in my experience, Bowers & Merena's photos are the opposite. Their coins are usually much better than their poor photos depict. Again, you need to see the coins in hand before placing bids.

Again, please heed the advice you are receiving here and it will serve you well.

 

By the way, as far as the show went, it was generally slow but steady, not as well attended as other Long Beach shows, but not bad at all. Also, they paraded a thief who stole from 9 dealers down the aisle in handcuffs with armed guards right behind him. It was the first time I'd seen this done at any show - and it is something that should be done at every show, just so people can see what the thief looks like in case he shows up at any other shows. There were a lot of whoops and hollers and everyone stood up to catch a glimpse of this pathetic redfaced thief.

 

Wow! When was this? Saturday musta been..

 

That might be more exciting for you, but The Penny Lady's earlier post, containing much sound advice was more important, whether you realize it or not.

 

I presume you're talking about a $20 Saint. Couldn't agree more... $1800 is absurd. Shows tend to be high.

Develop relationships with individual dealers. That really helps. But yeah... $1800 for a low gold Saint is insulting.

 

It took me years to accept this, but it is absolutely true. Looking back, it should seem obvious. It's true with everything else, right ? You want better lawn mowers, diamonds, cars, fresh salmon, whatever... you want better, you pay more.

The illusion is the Numbers Game... the delusion that "all MS64s are created equal, therefore I want the lowest price I can find". That's commodity thinking, not numismatic thinking. Pay the lowest price, you get the most low-end coin for the grade - or more likely an overgraded coin in an over-rated slab.

That's not to say one never finds a great deal - which is usually a fair, honest price on a great coin, even if that price is a little more than usual.