Came across this in one of my sorties. Not so sure if its genuine or not. Looks good though. What struck me was the doubling on some details on both sides. For a proof coin that seems funny. Any input is welcome. Thanks
This is not a PROOF coin....its been cleaned alot... It looks like Machine Doubling but I can't say for sure I can say what but something on this coin makes me feel funny...I would say that I'm 90% sure that its a fake....I say its a cast fake...maybe made of lead. Speedy
If you have access to a set of scales I would check the weight of this dollar to see if it is real or fake, the weight should be 27.22 grams. There are so many of these floating around that were made in Hong Kong and are fakes. I believe as speedy that this is a fake coin after close examination.
I see part of what I was thinking about....the face is wrong....it looks like she has 4 toes--to much detail on the eagle...overall I would say its a cast copy. Speedy
The reason I said proof was that IF genuine, this coin was struck at the Philadelphia mint(which were "proofs") since it doesn't have the cc or s mintmarks of business strikes for the year. Proofs of this particular coin as I read somewhere, weren't sealed in plastic cases like we do now and could've likely been mishandled. It definitely has a lot of details(my canon 20D also resolves a lot of it) the color in the picture is a bit off because of the lighting. Its definitely silver and not lead, I've seen quite a few of the lead and other metal varieties of the US-Phil Conant coins to know the difference. I don't have a scale with me so I haven't checked the weight. As I said in the first post, I'm not sure if its genuine but it looks good to me and I only paid the peso equivalent of 50 dollars for it from a silversmith/jeweller friend(another reason why I know its not lead) who buys these things and other silver scrap from needy provincial folk. The joy of the hunt is for me, one of the most exciting aspects of this hobby and although expertise and expert advise would be nice I wouldn't want to pass up on something just because I don't have an expert opinion at hand. If I buy a dud, I think that's part of the learning experience and shouldn't deter a hobbyist from taking the risk. Its part of the game. My 2 centavos A few more pics of the coin, this time in natural light
Wrong--Proofs AND Circulated strike came from Philadeplhia.... I still hold to that its a fake....and I also bet thats its not silver....when someone is trying to fake a silver coin most of the time they don't make it with the same metal they are trying to fake. Speedy
Well , from what I read 900 pieces were struck in Philadelphia on 1878 and were mostly for collectors. The sale didn't do too well and some were released to the circulation. Business strikes for that year were made in Carson city and San Francisco. Even this link doesn't show any business strikes in Philadelphia for that year(1878) Coinfacts As I said, I'm not sure if its genuine(but there's still some chance it could be) and I respect your opinion and your right to say it but I still hold that its silver. Cheers
Right....it would be a proof from 1878 if it was real....but if you set a proof up next to this...you would see what I mean.. When I said that the P mintmak was also for circulated strike I wasn't talking about this date...but for the rest of the Trade Dollar dates...almost all of them have proof and business strikes with the P ( or no mintmark ) mark on it. Since it has been found that in 1878 there were only proof struck that goes to prove my point that this is a fake. Speedy
Dos Mundos believed that it was a Proof coin since there is no Mint mark which would be correct (if unaltered) since Philadelphia only minted Proof Trade Dollars during that year! However, like you and many others, I believe that the coin is a fake! The indistinct details and lack of sharp edges on both the Obverse and Reverse details are one clue. The graininess look on the lower half of the Eagle's wings and the bumps (extra metal) in the fields below the Eagle's wings are another and are apparently from air bubbles. Also, the darkness from just inside of the stars to the rim (what some would think is dirt, corrosion or toning) is probablyly scorching which is done when the metal (Silver or whatever) is too hot when it is poured into the mold. Many of the Silver coins that were faked (counterfeited) back in the old days were made with metals other than Silver. However, most of the Counterfeiters today use Silver and other metals to fake Silver coins but they usually do not get the composition (.900 Silver and .100 Copper) or the weight correct. This was done to try to dupe Collectors and others that were becoming wise to coins faked with other metals and since it only takes $4 to $5 worth of Silver to fake a $4000 to $10,000 coin, then they feel it is worth it. Frank Sorry! I was writing my post while you all were posting yours.
I know what a proof looks like, thank you very much, and there are different kinds of proof issues. And of course I was referring to Philadelphia strikes of 1878, even my thread title says so. Just can't remember where I read it(probably in a coin magazine) but the proof trade dollars of that year were not the brilliant cameo type or anything as nice looking and were placed in paper coin envelopes. Of course, all this discussion is moot if the coin turns out to be fake, and I don't want to damage it just to find out. It feels and looks like silver, it even rings like silver when dropped(if you know what I mean) I'll try to find a scale and weigh it when I have time. Thanks man
Yes, it does show signs of cleaning in the past. Probably dipped in Baking soda, which is a bad habit that most collectors here make. Very few clean their coins now though, thank god
Sorry--I didn't mean to be rude.... A proof is a proof...I'm 100% sure this is NOT a proof--a proof has looks and detail and other coins don't have-- Here is a photo of a proof 1878 Trade Dollar http://www.islandcoins.com/trade/trade_pcgspr64cam_21888416.JPG Even if they wen't brilliant cameo they wouldn't look like this... Speedy
Thanks for the link, nice picture, I've been looking for something like that since I acquired this coin. You didn't have to apologize, it's all good animated discourse. We are all here to learn and share. Here's a scenario that could have happened. In my opinion I think its no stretch to think that a coin that's been mishandled and cleaned by incompetent and ignorant persons can end up looking like our suspect coin. Sometimes collections can be passed to disinterested and impoverished kin who don't know their value and sell it to similarly ignorant buyers who sell it to more ignorant buyers and so on and so forth. We're talking of more than a hundred years here and the coin is now in the hot, wet and humid Philippines which doesn't help matters any Of course the next scenario would be that the coin was made in China or some other country by unscrupulous individuals and sold to an unsuspecting buyer who sold it to another and another until subsequently finding its way to this country Anyway, real or not, its a beautiful piece and I intend to keep it Thanks for the discourse, you have a very nice forum here and I enjoy it. I just hope there was one like this which dealt with Philippine coins like you do with your fine U.S. coins.
your right...it could have been mishandled but it wouldn't have changed it this much IMO nor would it have the air bubbles like a cast copy--But I have been wrong many times and I could be again... I agree--Keep it...I have placed bids on fake Trade Dollars just so I could get a better look at them... There is a place on this forum to talk about such coins as Philippine....the World Forum... Speedy
Not much on Philippine coins there after doing a search, although there are a lots of threads on Spanish Crowns and Minors that were used for a long time in our history. I will try to post some threads there in the future if I have some querries. Thanks
