Hi Please tell me more about these two 17th Century coins. This is what I think I know: They are Spanish Netherlands / Belgium coins known as Patagons or Patacons. I am not sure how to determine if they are 1/4, 1/2 or 1 in value. Or are they? The one on the left in the upper photo has the very faint and obscured date of 1616 at the top. I think it was minted at Tournais. I do know one thing for sure - these photos suck! On what I think is the Reverse is a Shield in the middle of the field w/ small Lions and cross hatched areas, a Crown is on top. It also has the text - starting from the rt. of the Crown CW: ARCHI dot AVSTDVCES a symbol or device at bot BURG_ _ dot _ORNZ On the Obverse with a Cross and Crown: ALBERTVS dot ET dot ELIS symbol or device ABET dot DEI GRATIA The one on the right in the upper photo has no readable date ( least not by me ) - not sure if it had one originally. There does not appear to be enough room for it above the Crown and Shield, which is higher in the field. I think it was minted at Brabant. It has the text - starting from the rt. of the Crown CW: ARCHIDVC dot AVST dot DVCES dot BURG dot ET dot BRAB dot Z On the Obverse with a Cross and Crown: ALBERTVS a dot ET a dot ELISABET a dot DEI GRATIA Obviously, the coins are silver and are very much alike and very old - easily 2 centuries older than my next oldest coin. It's been 35 years since they were out of the airtite. I just wish I knew more about them. Can you help? Thanks, Mike ( the long winded one )
Mike, maybe this helps a little> http://www.nbbmuseum.be/2007/05/patagon.htm Just do a google search on: Patagons History Netherlands. Lots of references come up.
Danke Eduard, Yes, I had been to that sight ( I had already translated the text to some degree ) and many, many others... Been studying my older country coins as a hobby - not really a collector - just accumulated over the past 30+ years. The only mention of a Patagon's orig. value with a photo is at this site: http://www.vcoins.com/world/ritter/store/listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=26 It is from Flanders: 1/4 Patagon. Seems possible all of them were Minted at Antwerp and the "Burg" where it was used being Flanders, Brabant and Tournai. That site also mentions Belgium and not Spanish Netherlands. Seems that area from late 1500s to mid 1600 was quite tumultous as far as ruling families, countries and land shuffling. Seems there is a market for them - just not much info on them. I would like someone who appreciates them to have them in their collection. I just wish I could describe them better. Mike
I love the Dutch political Jetons of that era.... So funny. My favorite was of the Dutch woman giving "The Bird" to the King of Spain. Traci )
These 2 coins are struck in the name of archdukes Albert of Habsburg and Isabella of Spain. Technically the Southern Netherlands were not Spanish during their rule, as king Philip II of Spain handed total sovereignty of the country to his daughter Isabella and her husband Albert and their children. If they died childless the country would come back under Spanish sovereignty, and that's what happened in 1621. The mention of TORN means that coin has been struck at the Tournai mint. The other one has been struck for the duchy of Brabant (possible mints: Brussels, Antwerp, Maastricht, 's Hertogenbosch). As you only show one side of this coin I cannot make out which mint. By the way: "Albertus et Elisabeth Archiduces Austriae Duces Burgundiae Brabantiae" means Albert and Isabella, archdukes of Austria, dukes of Burgundy and Brabant. On the Tournai coin the last title is "Lords of Tournai". On a Flanders coin the title "duke of Brabant" would be replaced by "C.FL." "Comes Flandres" or "Counts of Flanders"
Thanks Bart, here's some better? pics Bart - I took a couple more shots, don't know if they will help out any. I appreciate the info. - do you know what value Patagon they are? And where do you come up w/ the mintmark? Mike
