1909VDB~Is it Red, Brown or Red/Brown?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by clembo, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. clembo

    clembo A closed mind is no mind

    Several months ago we bought a roll of VDBs at the shop. Sent a bunch in for grading and most came back 64-65 Red although there were a few MS66 Red.

    Now I know these aren't the greatest pics but you'll get the idea when you look at them. This poor little coin didn't get graded and I just rediscovered and had to have it so I bought it today.

    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x275/clembo1872/forums/vdbo.jpg


    Sure looks Red doesn't it?






    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x275/clembo1872/forums/vdbr.jpg

    On the other hand maybe it's Brown.



    I just thought it was a cool coin. Think this one was on the end of the roll perhaps? ;)
     
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Can't make a BN/RB/RD judgement from photos alone, but if forced I'd probably guess RB.

    As for the one-sided look... It could be lots of things. I've seen pennies that sat in a cardboard box face-up that toned in a similar fashion.
     
  4. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    If the reverse is really brown like that then it is red brown. Just my opinion.
     
  5. huntsman53

    huntsman53 Supporter**

    Yeah, it is hard to say what designation PCGS would give the coin but I would say RB! The coin appears a little weakly struck but a good candidate for a MS-64 grade. Nice coin clembo!


    Frank
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If the pics are accurate, then I don't think there could be any question of the coin being Red. To receive the Red designation the coin must be 95% or more original mint red.
     
  7. abe

    abe LaminatedLincolnCollector

    BROWN BROWN BROWN, sorry!
     
  8. Just Carl

    Just Carl Numismatist

    Me too with that judgement.
     
  9. CrustyCoins

    CrustyCoins Twilight Photographer

    On the reverse there is a glimer of shiny red, is it possible that the surface is just covered by grime that can be removed to reveal a more natural surface?

    Not that I recomend messing with the coin, just a thought.
     
  10. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    If the obverse is fully red, that's 50% red = RB.
     
  11. CrustyCoins

    CrustyCoins Twilight Photographer


    Unfortunately I think it has to be at least 50% of both sides. Because the reverse is most likely BN then I think the whole coin gets the BN designation.

    I could be mistaken, that's just what I remember.
     
  12. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    since the definition of RB is 5% to 95% red, I assume that you mean that the coin has to be at least 5% on both sides. Correct?

    BTW, I have not heard this before, but it sounds as if it might be - 5% anyway.
     
  13. CrustyCoins

    CrustyCoins Twilight Photographer

    Yep, guess I was a bit off. My point was that if one side is completely brown I believe the whole coin gets the BN designation even if the obverse is fully red.
     
  14. abe

    abe LaminatedLincolnCollector

    Thats exactly right, no question about it.
     
  15. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    Maybe not for you, but I have a question about it. ;)

    If the images portray the color accurately, I believe that there is enough red on the obverse for the coin to garner a RB designation.
     
  16. CrustyCoins

    CrustyCoins Twilight Photographer

    Mark, so what is the official word? If you have a RD side and a BN side you can still get a RB designation?
     
  17. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    The language below from the PCGS website doesn't state that the RB color needs to be present on both sides. Additionally, I have seen a number of coins like the one above receive RB designations. That said, a coin with only 5%-10% RD, even if it's on both sides, might receive a BN designation if the remainder of the surface is BN, as opposed to RD or RB.

    Lastly, in many cases the decision regarding such designations can be as subjective and inconsistent as the decision regarding numerical grades.

    "Copper Coinage -
    • BN - Brown – less then 5% original red color
    • RB – Red and Brown – between 5% and 95% original red color
    • RD - Red – more than 95% original red color"
     
  18. CrustyCoins

    CrustyCoins Twilight Photographer

    This is just the PCGS external language, was hoping for an opinion as an ex NGC grader. :)
     
  19. abe

    abe LaminatedLincolnCollector

    PCGS might not state that a certain percentage has to be on both sides, but hopefully common sence will tell you that it should be pretty much equal on both sides to designate a proper ( R, RB, or BR ). If someone tried to sell me that particular coin as RB, I would have to question their ability as a coin dealer. No hard feelings...
     
  20. Goldstone

    Goldstone Digging for Gold

    I could use a nice 09' VDB if you are selling any?
     
  21. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    Would you question a seller's ability if they described the coin as "RB", having a subdued red obverse and a brown reverse, while also providing accurate images of the coin? Either way, if you are serious about your comment then you are questioning the ability of the graders at the major grading companies. And simply because they use a certain standard for color designations that apparently differs from your own.
     
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