I was think about buying a 1999-2005 Silver Pf69 Ultra Cameo State Quarters in either Pcgs or Ngc. I was wondering what grading service is the best out of the two? Im only 17 years old and gonna keep this set for many years so what service will have the best resell.
NGC will have the better grade...but it has been proven that when selling it seems that PCGS sells higher...but I would go for the NGC...better grade is better all around. Speedy
Sorry Speedy...have to disagree. I find that NGC is more liberal with Proof coins than PCGS. Look especially at 69's and 70 grades. NGC tends to hand out the "holy 70 grail" grade way more often...not as much as ICG, but far less than PCGS. How many 70 grades is too much or just right? PCGS and NGC are both respected leaders of the third partied grading. The question also came up as to what service will have the best resell all things being equal? A quick example...I looked up completed auctions in eBay for a 1998 PR69DCAM Silver Eagle $1 (Ultra Cam for NGC). These took place over the last 7 days. PCGS prices realized: 61.00, 71.00, 51.04 NGC prices realized: 49.59, 38.00, 66.00 So if you can pick up silver eagles in a PCGS holder at a decent price, chances are that if you sell, they will obtain higher prices than other services...and yes, you will net more down the road considering what you paid up front for it. Could it change? Maybe...but when current market forces come in to play, I find PCGS selling prices higher than NGC who is more than ANACS who is more than ICG. Search the completed eBay auctions and prices realized from the other auction houses like Heritage or Teletrade. It is hard not to ignore the prices PCGS coins are selling for over NGC...in the same grade for the same coin.
Hey Midas I don't think there should be any PF/MS 70's....there just isn't such a thing....there will always be some little thing.... I have never seen a ANACS PF/MS 70 of anything...I have heard that there are some out there but I would like to see some. If you look at my post I agree on this point with you...PCGS will sell higher most of the time...or so it seems....but then there was the time when I paid the highest price paid for a PF66 1954 NGC or PCGS PF Franklin...and it was NGC...in that case...it was NOT NGC. So I agree with you on almost everything but it still seems that PCGS grades more PF70's. Speedy
PCGS grades more 70s because they are more popular. More coins=more possibilities. ICG grades everything PR 70. Ive seen a bunch of their state quarter PR70 sets everywhere
Let's examine the population reports from both PCGS and NGC for the issue at hand...Proof American Silver Eagles. For the purpose of my argument, lets examine 5 years beginning with 1996. After all, most of these coins have been distributed and those that were slabbed by PCGS or NGC have already been completed. In other words, I doubt anybody with a hoard of SAE's from these dates plans on submitting them to PCGS or NGC for grading, thereby scewing the population reports. I have PCGS population reports (c/o of their web site) and you can pull both NGC and PCGS reports together through Heritage's website, so with a little math, we can figure out NGC population reports for the ultimate 70 grade for these SAE's: Date * Total PCGS and NGC * PCGS only * NGC only -- PR70's 1996-P 212 38 174 1997-P 205 33 172 1998-P 554 65 489 1999-P 285 20 265 2000-P 1614 31 1616 (sorry, it has hard to make a chart) Look it up...there are more NGC PR70 Ultra Cam Silver Eagles than PCGS PR70 DCAM's in this sample of 5 straight years. As stated, I find much more 70 grades for proofs being thrown around by NGC than PCGS...hence another reason why PCGS graded coins realize more and should be chosen if you had a choice among the two...all things being equal.
As I said before...I agree with you.... But that doesn't make me wish I had bought more PCGS slabs when I like NGC better. I don't buy MS/PF70 coins so this doesn't make beans to me.... As it has been said before...NGC has graded more consistantly....that doesn't mean that PCGS doesn't grade good coins...I have PCGS graded coins but if I was going to pick a coin for my collection and I had the chance to buy a PCGS graded one and a NGC graded one for the same price...I would go for the NGC...its just me and nobody is going to change that So yes...in the higher grades they do more...but if you want to put some more charts...do one of NGC and ICG. Speedy
Here is an idea that will save you money in the end....buy the sets not slabbed...buy them just like they came from the mint...that should save you money...IMO you won't be getting PF70 coins anyway and I think this would be better all around. Speedy
His question was PCGS or NGC for long term investment purposes. I answered his question based on personal experience in both buying and selling both of their slabbed products. It was my intention to give him some "dollars and sense" for years to come based on real numbers and real dollars...not human subjectivity nor emotion. He never did ask about ICG, but I will state it again...PCGS realizes higher dollars than NGC, who realizes higher dollars than ANACS, who realizes higher dollars than ICG...based on the same coin, in the same grade, sold at the same period of time. BTW...when robster 16 tries to sell that SAE as a PROOF 70 based on his opinion RAW (per your suggestion) instead of one slabbed by either PCGS or NGC, I can assure you the dollars he realizes will be far, far less than if it were a PCGS or NGC slabbed PR70. Anyways, he wanted 69 DCAM's anyway. Good luck robster16, I rest my case...
Just to jump in here... The original post indicated that the set would be held for many years. So this is really a request to predict the future, which is quite a tough assignment since it is hard enough to figure out and agree upon the present. But with that criteria, I would say buy whichever set is less expensive assuming there is no measurable difference in quality. Nobody knows which TPG will be preferred in, say, 20 years. Nobody knows what sort of scandal lurks just beneath the surface of the popular grading companies of today that might damage the trust that people put in their holders. If the coins in the NGC holder are 10% cheaper, buy them. The only way this won't work out is if the percentage increases at the time of sale. If the gap narrows, you will earn a higher percentage return. If it stays the same, it doesn't matter. I'm not sure there is much evidence that the gap is likely to widen more than it already is because these things tend to regress to the mean over time. Anyway, that's what I would do.
You can't just use 1 example to prove a point - you need to look at all the facts. I will agree that NGC has more PF70 UCAM grades than PCGS does. But there's more to it than that. What about the MS grades ? What about the PF69 grades ? It's just as easy to be liberal with the 69 grades as it is to be liberal with the 70 grades. I think if you will refer to an article in Coin Wolrd dated 4/4/2005 by Mark Ferguson, titled Higher populations soften modern values - you'll see what I mean. Here's a few examples - In 2005 alone, and this was just up until April - Lincoln cents - NGC PF69 UCAM - 20,501 Lincoln cents - PCGS PF69 DCAM - 45,242 Lincoln cents - NGC MS69 - 45 Lincoln cents - PCGS MS69 - 716 Washington quarters - NGC PF69 UCAM - 68,647 -- Washington quarters - PCGS PF69 DCAM 238,422 Washington quarters - NGC MS69 - 0 Washington quarters - PCGS MS69 - 309 Jefferson nickel - NGC PF69 UCAM - 26,213 Jefferson nickel - PCGS PF69 DCAM - 67,070 Jefferson nickel - NGC MS69 - 0 - - MS70 - 0 Jefferson nickel - PCGS MS69 - 1,077 - - MS70 - 79 These numbers are representative across the board for the various coin series. And they occur while NGC is grading more coins than PCGS does. It tells a bit of a different story.
GD...those are for total submissions up to the year 2005. I am not positive who does the more of total submissions, but you have to look at the individual years and coins. Here is the NGC's population reports: NGC Population Reports Let's go back to the year 1997 since most coins that were slated to be slabbed have pretty much been slabbed. In 1997 for just Lincolns, they have certified 572 PRUltraCam Lincolns. Here's the breakdown. 9- 68's 528 - 69's 34 - 70's (5.9%) NGC certified a total of 572 Ultra Cam 1997 Lincolns. PCGS on the other hand certified 1,651 1997 Lincoln proofs. Better than 3 times more. 3 - 64's 2 - 65's 15- 67's 88 - 68's 1520 - 69's 20- 70's (1.2%) Back again to SAE's...Here is PCGS population reports for SAE's since 2000. The last number is total graded and the first number to the left is the number in the 70 grade, the third number to the left is the 69 grade, etc. S$1 2000-P PRDC 0 0 0 0 1 4 3 21 56 404 4745 31 5265 S$1 2001-W PRDC 0 0 0 1 0 8 3 11 67 354 6794 74 7312 S$1 2002-W PRDC 0 0 0 0 0 5 1 9 23 176 4038 68 4320 S$1 2003-W PRDC 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 8 79 5150 185 5426 S$1 2004-W PRDC 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 7 5 70 4180 135 4399 S$1 2005-W PRDC 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 2 16 1129 44 1192 S$1 2005-W First Strike PRDC 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5821 232 6053 Let's compare the NGC population report for silver eagles: 2000 P EAGLE S$1 PFUC 1 1 1 4 18 99 6796 1585 8505 2001 W EAGLE S$1 PFUC 1 2 3 20 83 8633 1454 10196 2002 W EAGLE S$1 PFUC 2 2 14 66 6055 1576 7715 2003 W EAGLE S$1 PFUC 1 2 1 9 45 6064 3979 10101 2004 W EAGLE S$1 PFUC 1 8 65 5862 3447 9383 2005 W EAGLE S$1 PFUC 1 3 14 5578 3783 9379 NGC, in this case, has certified more proof silver eagles since 2000 over PCGS which explains why they have more 70 grades than PCGS. However, look at the ratio of 70 grades to the total submissions! For instance in the year 2000, NGC certified 18.63% of their submissions as the 70 grade where PCGS certified .58% of their total submissions earning a 70 grade. Last example...let's look at the population reports of the 1996-W dime that recently has been discussed: PCGS total graded in MS: 2074...807 were 67's, 426 were 68's, and 5 were 69's PCGS total grade in MSFB: 473...231 were 67's and 90 were 68's, none higher NGC total grade in MS: 397...179 were 67's, 50 were 68's, none higher NGC total grade in MSFT (instead of FB): 168...80 were 67's and 38 are 68's, none higher. CONCLUSION: Look at past and recent prices realized and study the population reports PER coin as you go forward.
This I can agree with! People have always said that while one company has such-an-such a series that they are tough on theother companies are tough on different series. I guess to answer the question of the OP we'd have to say from the data presented that in the ASE series that PCGS tends to be more strict in their interpretation of the high grades and therefore it is likely (but by no means guaranteed) that "investment" in PCGS ASE's is the option that will return higher raw numbers upon the future sale of the coins.
Midas - NGC didn't even slab modern US coins until 2001 or 2002 ( I forget for sure which year they started ). PCGS started slabbing them in 1989. So it stands to reason that PCGS has slabbed more in total - for all modern US coins. So it is useless to try and compare totals. Now I could be mistaken, but seeing as how NGC slabs 150,000 coins a month, and PCGS slabs 100,000 coins a month - I think the numbers I used were just for this year alone. Also - those numbers are not for just 2005 coins - they are for coins of all dates in the series, except for the nickels and they are post war only - after 1945. The author of the article knew all of this which why he tracked the total pop reports by year. This allowed him to do the basic math and determine how many coins were graded in what grade per a given year. You and I both know that the pop reports are not listed by how many were slabbed in each year. So that was the only way he could obtain the information. Now I never have disputed that PCGS slabbed coins typically realize higher prices on sale than NGC slabbed coins do. Although the amount of difference between the two has dropped significantly from what it was a few years ago and it shows no signs of stopping. I believe that this due to collectors becoming better educated in regard to how the two companies grade. The point I was trying to make with my post is that you cannot say one company is more liberal than another when it comes to grading based simply on one grade - that being 70.
If it were not for the fact that the value of slabbed ASE's has dropped roughly by 50% in the past 2 yrs or so - I might agree. But that drop includes the coins slabbed by both companies. My previous post were not really addressing the OP's question. They were addressing other comments.
