ANA standards vs TPG grading

I had a nice conversation with r-zage yesterday, and we talked about the TPG's market grading. I was then informed that the TPG's do not follow the ANA grading standards guide.

So, my question - why do we? Why not just figure out how the TPG's grade, and grade like them? If I go by my ANA guide and call a old Bust Quarter (for instance) an AU-55, send it to them and it comes back a MS-63, because they market grade, then why don't we?

I guess it's okay in the way, as the guide makes us be more strict...idk


stainless

 

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.......i guess there really should be a TPG grading guide book! what say you?

 

I recently bought this book from PCGS. I find it very informative regarding a number of subjects, including but not limited to grading.

http://www.amazon.com/Official-Guid...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250690764&sr=1-1

 

The Grading Sets in the PCGS Registry are quite helpful, especially sets like mine with decent photos.

http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcases.aspx?c=193

I know PCGS owns grading sets that their graders use, for the past few years there have been rumors of plans to photograph and put them on the website, but they don't seem to be in any hurry to do so. I've seen the grading set on display at Long Beach before though, sort of cool.

 

Over half of those grading sets don't even have photo's. Seems like a waste of time to share them. Yours is an excellent exception.

PCGS put their grading set on display at one point unfortunately I was not able to make that show. I have talked with David Hall a couple of times through e-mail about the grading set and it is a constant work in progress. They are always looking for generic examples to fill holes. I offered one of my G03 gold examples but it was a key date so they declined.

 

I think the ANA is more exacting and TPG leave more to personal interpretation.

 

There is room for eye appeal , but they state they will give a coin with slight rub (wear ) an MS grade , why can't they just grade it AU as the ANA book says and let the seller and buyer determine the market value ?
rzage

 

PCGS s book Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection has a lot to be desired as Doug stated but at least they have a book with some of their reasoning for how they grade , I've heard NGCs book is completely worthless , has anybody read it or know about it ?
rzage

 

Many of us do.

 

I think you are right on point. When I grade coins, I use my experience with TPG graded examples as the standard rather than the ANA guidelines. IMO, it has nothing to do with right or wrong. The simple fact is that I buy/sell PCGS and NGC graded coins. It is of no benefit to me to use the ANA guidelines if neither PCGS or NGC use them. Understanding grading is very important. Understanding that grading is subjective and changes with the standards applied by the grader is even more important.

To illustrate my point, Doug consistently grades every coin more conservatively than the TPG's. This is not by accident, it is because he applies the ANA standards strictly. The TPG's do not and the standards they use are not as conservative. The result is that Doug routinely feels that TPG graded coins are overgraded. Whether they are actually overgraded or not depends solely on which grading standard you apply.

 

Doug, I'll have to disagree with that. If you had said in the past 10-15 or so years, I wouldn't quibble. But, if anything, overall, I believe that NGC and PCGS have been stricter, not more liberal in their grading the past few years.

Edited to add: I am basing the above on my own observations, as well as comments from a number of very large/active sharp submitters I talk to.

 

That's one of the first books I bought. It has some value, but much less than I thought. And it certainly does not define PCGS's grading standards.

 

I'm hearing that this is a really bad time to be a crack-out artist. Even guys with historically high batting averages are having a tough time getting upgrades.

 

Doug, I don't think the grading companies are always tightening up and neither do a number of the very large submitters I talk to. But many of them have indicated that grading has been tougher, overall, for about the past 3 years.

I'm talking about major wholesalers who don't typically speak out on coin forums, etc. and who easily submit large enough quantities of coins to get a good feel for the grading. Also, many of the people you speak of who made money on upgrades over a period of many years, have had a much more difficult time doing so the past few years. I believe that most people are far more likely to speak up and brag about up-grades than they are to share their failures with others. So we get a skewed view of results in public venues.

If enough people give opinions on this topic, there are bound to be disagreements, and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

So I guess now , you don't only have to know how to grade , but also know how each tpg grades , and even how each particular tpg has graded at each time period .
That's a big order for the average collector and even the better than average collector .
Befor I looked at a coin and if it looked nice to me for the grade and price I bought it , now I look at a coin and wonder is it low average or high for the grade .
I think I'll just go back to my old way if I like the coin and am happy with the price just buy it , and don't fret about low middle or high for the grade.
rzage

 

I hear ya and today I saw proof of what you say. A friend stopped by and said he had a coin to show and it was going to make me mad. Whenever he gets a good pocket-change find he likes to bring it by the shop. Anyhow, he says he got change at McDonalds and he threw it all in his change jar some time ago. When he had time he looked through his jar and there it was. Then he proceeded to pull an NGC slab from his pocket which held an MS-63 RB 1972 double die #1 cent.

Now I admit it was a nice looking coin but wait a minute.. How can a coin that came from who-knows-where and has been in a cash drawer for who-knows-how-long before it is passed on to a customer who throws it in a jar grade at MS-63? It had dings and marks on the obv and some nice black alien mucus on the rev.

With all the supposed scrutiny, expertise and microscopes at their disposal they grade an obviously circulated coin as uncirculated? He said he even noted that he found it in pocket change and they still graded it MS. Doesn't pocket change = circulated?

Is it because it is a rare and valuable coin and that is why they over graded it? Or do they just overlook minor wear anymore?