I'm sure you've all seen enough questions on toning but I really don't know much about toned coins except that I prefer them. One person even said that a toned coin is a neglected coin. I think that's a bit over the top but I'm still really new to coin collecting and I don't really know the answer. If you have two coins which are the same in every way, except one has toning and the other doesn't, which one will be graded higher? Which one is more likely to have a higher set price? Should a collector do everything possible to keep their coins from getting toned? I know that preference will come into play on this one. hopefully that doesn't sound too lame. As always I appreciate all responses
eye of beholder Whether toning is desirable or not is in the eye of the beholder. The market will determine whether toning is desirable or not with prices realized. Toning vs. Brilliant preference has run in cycles and fads. I believe in the 70s and 80s, brilliant was preferred, resulting in many Morgan dollars getting dipped in cleaning solutions and now those are less desirable today because of the cleaning. Today, I see rainbow toning is preferred, sometimes resulting in auction prices multiples higher than another example that is not toned. Regarding the grade, toning by itself will not change the technical grade, but there is about 10-20% of the grading criteria that is "eye appeal". This can result is a difference of grades for the same amount of marks on a coin, but usually not by more than one point (63 vs 64, ie). Also, NGC has a designation with a *, indicating that this particular technical grade has superior eye appeal. So an NGC coin graded MS63* would have better eye appeal to the average collector than a coin graded MS63. However, if there is a major mark on the coin in a prime focal area, the toning can't help that, and sometimes toning can mask marks, resulting in some people trying to hide marks with artificial toning. In the end, the market will price the coin according to its desirability; technical grade and eye appeal will combine to form this "market" grade and price. For me, I prefer original coins. So that means that a coin that was struck in the 1800's will undoubtedly have toning of some sort. I accept that as an indication of original surfaces. So I prefer original surfaces. Toning will always be a part of that. To avoid toning, store the coin properly in an airtight holder under stable environmental conditions. But I wouldn't make a big deal about some light toning. In my view, it's much, much worse to clean a coin in order to remove light toning. The only time to "dip" a coin, IMHO, is when the toning is very dark, spotty, or ugly. JMHO
That is a very difficult question to answer because the preference of toning is very subjective in nature. Some collectors prefer untoned coins and others prefer rainbow toned monsters. In most cases, the toning will not affect the grade of the coin. Unattractive toning or toning that impedes luster can lower the grade of a coin and fantastic rainbow toning can increase the grade of the coin. Usually, rainbow toned coins will drive a premium over an untoned piece. These premiums can range from a small percentage to over 50X bid. Here are two 1945-S Jefferson Nickels side by side, one toned, the other untoned. At auction the toned coin in this example will always out perform the untoned example. For a more in depth explanation why, please read the following thread: http://www.cointalk.com/showthread.php?t=39837&highlight=rainbow+effect+prices
Toning has always been popular among a select group of collectors. But toning began to achieve mainstream popularity in 2002. It really took off in 2003-04. Prior to that, "blast white" was all the rage. And there is still a very large contingent of collectors who prefer blast white. The thing to remember about toning is that not everybody likes it because of the "pretty colors". I would guess that fully half of those who prefer toning do so because it indicates originality - a coin that has not been messed with or dipped. If you can find a coin older than 20 years old that is balst white, then you can pretty much bet the farm that coin has been dipped. And don't forget, what a great many people think is blast white - really isn't blast white. Every single coin ever struck begins to tone the moment it leaves the coin press. The very first beginnings of toning are subtle shades of grey (on silver or nickel) that the only the discerning eye will even see. With copper it is much easier to see, but copper is the most reactive of our coinage metals. But even then, only those who are quite familiar with copper will see the first stages of toning because it is so subtle.
I think the answers drifted away from the original questions, at least in part. And I'm not going to really try and answer the first question. As far as the TPGs go, I suspect that toning is folded into the "eye appeal" aspect of grading. The second question is easier. It all depends upon the buyer. I lean heavily to the "blast white" side. I won't pay extra for toning, no matter how appealing.
Mine certainly did. But that was because I thought Lehigh answered it quite well and there wasn't anything I could add to that part. But I thought it worthwhile to explain some basics about toning.
You really have to look at hundreds if not thousands of examples to understand what toning is acceptable. I very much prefer some kind of toning, not always colorful on my coins. I always thought it odd looking at an album of blast white coins where the only thing that changes is the date. Kind of boring to look at if you ask me. For Morgans at a minimum I like full booming luster with a little gold tone around the rims.
I think I will try to stay away from the toned coins unless I can buy them in person. I still have tons to learn about spotting a cleaned coin in a pic. I can spot the obvious ones but I couldn't spot this one and I can't let that happen again!! I got this in the mail yesterday. It's really a very nice coin except it's been cleaned!!!!! What would you do, I paid $122.50 for it??
I too say mostly well answered but I'll stick in my 2 cents anyway. I'm a toned coin hater myself. I try anything to stop my coins from toning. I refuse to purchase a toned coin but if I really need a coin that is toned, I've tried dipping it in Acetone in case I can get rid of some of the toning. I've seen many coins at coin shows in slabs graded as high as MS-69 and well toned so obviously TPGS's don't mind toning at all. There are toned coin forums too for those that are dedicated to toned coins. www.tonedcoins.org for example. Proving as already said, it's just up to the individual.
Well the first thing is to always remember that when you see that darkness around all of the legends and devices in protected areas and the rest of the coin is clean - then the coin has almost always been harshly cleaned. And what I would do is send it back for a refund.
Can I add a question?? My question is will TPGs like PCGS and MGC grade a coin MS-65+ if it has been dipped? Is that one of the things they looks for? In other words, if a top grader grades a coin highly (gr?), can I be pretty well assured (as a newbie) that it has not been dipped? The same thing goes for CAC. Does CAC's seal of approval mean it has not been dipped? Thanks as always.
I would estimate that 80% or more of all the older coins in NGC and PCGS holders have been dipped at least once in the life of the coin. The only time the TPG's care if a coin has been dipped or not is if that coin was over-dipped to the point that the dipping destroyed the luster on the coin.
What Doug said. And CAC seal of approval is that the coin is properly graded. So even the two together will not get you an undipped coin in a lot cases - the big difference is the luster of the coin left. I would say with the two you will probably(carefully selected word) not get a harshly cleaned or dipped coin.
Terrific guys. Three very important learnings (clarifications) for me and other newbies: 1) That up to 80% of all the older coins in NGC and PCGS holders have been dipped at least once in the life of the coin. 2) That just because a coin had been dipped, doesn't mean it necessarily loses it's luster (which makes sense because luster is a function of the physical condition of the coin - the tiny grooves - not the toning). Although over dipping WILL decrease luster. 3) The CAC sticker simply means a PCGS or NGC coin has been graded properly or deserves a grade 1 point higher in the case of a gold sticker. Did I get that right?
Almost, over-dipping a coin can decrease the luster, or it can totally destroy and wipe out every bit of luster a coin ever had. If a coin is dipped properly even an expert cannot tell it has been dipped - except, by using deductive reasoning. What I mean by that is this. All coins start to tone the very second they leave the coin press. So if a coin has no toning whatsoever, and toning can be very subtle as well as in your face outrageous, then the odds are stongly in favor that the coin has been dipped. So other than using reasoning, you cannot see anything, even with a loupe, that tells you that a coin has been dipped - if it is done properly.
The CAC sticker actually means its at least solid for the grade B. or on the high end for the grade A. fOR EACH GRADE YOU CAN DIVIDE THE COIN AS LOW END FOR THE GRADE or C . , AVERAGE FOR THE GRADE B . , and high for the grade A. The gold sticker means the coin is undergraded . So for all purposes the green CAC sticker means the coin is not low for the grade . rzage
