Fake or "no decision" at one TPG and OK at another??

Yes, it happens and is scary IMO.

I have had two experiences involving such situations.

Awhile ago, I bought a NCS 1804 bust dime and wanted it in an ANACS holder. ANACS said it was a cast counterfeit. Fortunately, I saved the NCS insert and the dealer/auctioneer (who thought the coin was OK and handled the submission) took the coin back, refunded my money, and sent it back to NCS to be re-holdered.

Recently, I cracked-out a 1797 bust half dime in an ANACS net-grade holder marked "corroded, scratched and bent" and submitted it to PCSG with the intent of getting it into a Genuine holder. After a prolonged stay at PCGS (the other coins in the same submission class came back weeks earlier), it came back "no decision/refund". I then resubmitted it to ANACS (raw) and it slabbed, same as before.

I can accept that a grade is just an opinion, and may vary from one service to another. But authenticity??

In fairness, PCGS did not state that the former ANACS coin was fake, just "no decision". I beleive the coin is OK, and so does ANACS (two submissions). I guess one could applaud PGCS for honesty in stating that is unsure, and not charging for the submission to boot. Still, isn't there something wrong when the largest TPG on Planet Earth can't make an "up or down" decision regarding authenticity?

I believe the TPGs should be able to state (and guarantee) that a coin is or is not "real" (i.e., not counterfeit or altered) except in extreme cases (such as with a basal state coin so far gone that a determination cannot be made).

What say thee?

 

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......i guess this could happen. the graders are like anyone else in a business. some are more versed in their profession. take mechanics for example. some garages have employees that 'dig' a little deeper when faced with a problem and therefore put more concentration/research in solving the problem whereas another individual won't make or take the extra effort to do his/her job. jmho

 

interesting, and it just goes to show ya:

They may be the experts, but experts can disagree.

 

Wow! That is super-scary. Do you have any specific examples of this scenario or is your statement just speculation, rumor or hearsay?

 

I've heard this from other collector friends of mine. They've told me that you can get a coin graded from the top grading companys and if there not happy with the grade they crack it open and send it back untill they get the grade they want. So how are we to believe that a coin we buy graded by one of these companys is or isn't the grade they gave it? I've also heard PCGS doesn't body bag coins anymore is this true.

 

Authenticating rare coins is one of the most difficult jobs in the world. Very few people are qualified to professionally authenticate a wide variety of coins when facing the top level of fakes. For some coins, I'm sure second and third opinions are sought because they are so tough.

As for itsallngoodtime's questions, yes, resubmitting is a popular game for a small percentage of players. That is why it is essential to learn the basics of grading before spending big money on expensive high grade coins. A coin that made it on the 10th resubmit is likely going to sell for a lot less at true auction than a coin that is rock solid for the grade and made it first time through.

The low end coin might hammer for half of what a high end coin in the same grade, same company's holder might sell for. Add in various companies and the price spread can be even wider. For some series, some grades, some company's holders are deeply discounted at true auction. Understand that grades and quality are a continuum, but the companies use discrete points. Some series will have a higher consistency rate than others. Best to learn that too, if spending big bucks.

As for the second point, yes, PCGS is now using "Genuine" holders for coins with problems such as cleaning, whizzing, damaged rims, graffitti, questionable toning. A few problems such as active PVC damage will not be holdered. Fakes will not be holdered.

 

Not exactly. If it is fake or no decision, it is bagged.

 

Thanks for the information
itsallengoodtime
Bob

 

Hey, I just asked if you have any specifics or whether your statement was just speculation, rumor or hearsay. I don't see any answer in your response.

The two examples I mentioned are real-world personal experiences. Were yours?

 

While I doubt neither yours or Dougs stories - heard others from my dealer - the question I want to ask is: Why are you playing the crackout game between the various graders? What is the point? Isn't this part of the risk you are accepting by doing this? I understand why some people do it - simply to make a buck off the newly graded coin, but what was your goal? Too me all I have seen happen is you have had two potential counterfeit coins re-holdered to release to someone else. I am just not seeing what your goal is.

 

Like I said "Recently, I cracked-out a 1797 bust half dime in an ANACS net-grade holder marked "corroded, scratched and bent" and submitted it to PCSG with the intent of getting it into a Genuine holder. As for the dime, all my slabbed coins are in PCGS, NGC or ANACS holders, plain and simple.

I don't play the crack-out for upgrades game. In fact, a goodly portion of my collection is in first generation holders that have a decent shot at upgrading.

 

But it was already in a ANAC's holder like the rest of the collection? Second - why crack it out before sending it in? You could have just sent in the ANAC's holder. The same thing might have happened - but then you would not have to pay ANAC's to slab it again. Still feel like I am I missing something?

 

While I see no need to debate or explain my actions, I would prefer a PGCS Genuine to an ANACS 3 comment holder on that coin (which has EF details)

You say "You could have just sent in the ANAC's holder. The same thing might have happened - but then you would not have to pay ANAC's to slab it again. Still feel like I am I missing something?" Now I am missing something as I don't believe it works that way--educate me please.

 

It is this simple - if you buy any coin in a holder - even WCGS. Just send the coin in the holder to PCGS. Then list the minimum grade you will accept for the coin. PCGS will look at the coin grade it, see if you will accept the grade - then they holder it. If not they return the coin in the original holder. This has been my whole point in why you cracked them out. This could save you money in the furture. This is what gives me heartache on your posts - only one reason I can see to crack them out like that and send to another TPG. And honestly I never really thought about liking a plastic slab better - but I do admit I like PCGS better.

This is from the FAQ page:

How do I submit a coin that was graded by another company?
A: The “Crossover” service is for coins previously graded by another grading service. Submit the coins in the holder and PCGS will grade the coins and put them in a PCGS holder only if the PCGS grade meets or exceeds the other grading company’s grade. If the PCGS grade is lower than the other grading company’s grade (unless a lower minimum grade is specified in the minimum grade column) we will return the coin to you in the original holder. Note: The minimum grade cannot be higher than the current grade on the holder. You will be charged the full grading fee even if your coin does not cross.

Now people just love to think(right or wrong) that PCGS will be more fair to a raw coin than a coin in another companies holder. My father has done it both ways with about the same results. So I think they are as honest as possible in regrading these coins.

 

I, for one, would prefer that TPGs err on the cautious side, so the observations of MBT don't raise my eyebrows -- to the contrary they are expected.

 

You say "It is this simple - if you buy any coin in a holder - even WCGS. Just send the coin in the holder to PCGS. Then list the minimum grade you will accept for the coin. PCGS will look at the coin grade it, see if you will accept the grade - then they holder it."

But what if the coin is net graded with three listed problems and I only want to get it into a Genuine PCGS holder?? What happens then?

 

A coin dealer I know real well told me that some years back he purchased a raw 1916D Mercury Dime. He has been a dealer for a long, long time and said he would swear it was real so he sent it in for grading and authenticating. It came back in a body bag as a fake. He didn't believe it so he sent it to another TPGS and it came back in a slab and graded. He too said this is sort of scarry but people in TPGS's are just people.

 

All this makes me glad I don't collect slabs or "invest" in rare coins....