The Byzantine empire still exists and you can visit it

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Only a Poor Old Man, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. Only a Poor Old Man

    Only a Poor Old Man Well-Known Member

    Coin collecting has resulted in many of you becoming interested in the Byzantine empire, which is one of the greatest empires that most people have never heard of. This is a shame, as it is a fascinating part of history that would be worthy of a movie
    or two if Hollywood were to ever discover that it was as interesting as the earlier Roman empire ever was. Perhaps, that's the problem as there wasn't really anything Roman about it, but it was simply a peaceful Greek takeover of the eastern part of the Roman territories. The 1054 schism between the eastern and western churches cemented the animosity between the western (Frankish) world and the Levantines.

    aths.png
    For many, the Byzantine empire is dead and it can only be seen and examined through old basilicas, history books, and of course coins. This is where they are wrong though.. A small part of the Byzantine empire survives to this day, with its political administration, rules, customs, calendar, architecture, even cusine, largely intact. This is the semi-autonomous monastic republic of Mount Athos which can be found in the Chalkidiki region of modern Greece and is a UNESCO world heritage site. It has borders, you need permission and a visa to enter, and if you do, you will find yourselves travelling back a thousand years into the heart of Byzantine orthodoxy.

    mta_4.jpg

    Mount Athos is not small as the Vatican for example, but it is clearly defined in geographical terms. It is a mountainous peninsula which covers an area of 130 square miles with the highest peak at 2033 metres. This rugged and steep peninsula has had some historical fame from before the establisment of monasticism, as it was the place where the Persian King Darius lost 300 ships due to bad weather while attacking Greece, leading to his Successor Xerxes to build his famous canal in the foot of the peninsula.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_Canal

    Even though it is a peninsula, it can only be accessed by boat as the land border is walled and fenced. Only 110 visitors are allowed entry per day, and the number of non-Orthodox Christians is limited to 10 daily.

    mta_3.jpg

    Also, women are not allowed into Mount Athos and this has been the case for the past 1000 years. The most practical reason being that the whole area is regarded as one big monastery, so this is done to protect the celibacy of the monks. In practical terms there are 20 main monasteries dotted around the peninsula, with a few smaller monastic settlements and plenty of hermitages in the most remote parts of the mountain.

    mta_1.jpg

    There are no asphalt roads in Athos, but only a network of footpaths and a number of dirt-roads opened in the last few decades for goods transport and forest fire control. This is part of the appeal to the modern visitor. The religious will visit Athos as a pilgrimage, but there is plenty to do for the secular visitor as well as it is a paradise for trecking, walking, and anyone interested in flora and fauna or Byzantine architecture and customs. The monks are friendly and hospitable and will not try to force their beliefs on anyone as long as the visitors respect theirs and their way of life.

    mta_5.jpg

    Historically, Mount Athos was home to hermit monks from as early as the 7th century, but it was established as a monastic community after the iconoclasm period ended. It
    was officially proclaimed as such in the year 885 by emperor Basil I, and no laymen or farmers are allowed on the mountain since then. Great Lavra, the first big monastery that survives to this day was build by the monk Athanasios the Athonite in the year 962 with the support of the emperor Nicephorus Phocas. Since then, the peninsula and its status was protected by all the Byzantine emperors, with some of them ending up as monks in their later years.

    mta_2.jpg

    When the Byzantine empire fell to the Turks, Athos survived due to its remoteness and ruggedness and by the fact that the sultans where happy to allow the monasteries to survive as long as they were heavily taxed. It suffered from pirate raids over the years (that's why most monasteries look like fortresses) and it was heavily damaged during the Greek revolution, but amazingly it survives to this day. It's political structure and way of life hasn't changed a bit since the year 971 where a charter was drawed by emperor Ioannis Tzimiskes to govern the organization and administration of the Athonite State. This document survives to this day and is kept in the tower of Karyes, the only village in Athos.

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    There are no hotels or restaurants in Athos. Only a couple of inns, and shops selling basic supplies in the main port and the village of Karyes. Visitors need to apply for a visa that allows for a 3-night stay in Athos and costs 25 euros. Visitors stay and eat in the monasteries at no additional cost (some of them have no electricity), but are not allowed to stay in the same monastery for more than one night. There are some minivans that can transfer pilgrims from one monastery to another on the dirt-roads, but if you are fit the footpaths are the more interesting choice. Some of them are simple walks in the forest, some others are not suitable for those with fear of heights. The food is simple and spartan, but delicious especially if you have been walking for hours. There is no meat in Athos. Everything is vegetarian and even vegan on fasting days. But there are no fake sausage rolls here, some of the recipes are as old as the monasteries.

    mta_6.jpg

    I have been to Athos many times over the years and I took the photos displayed in this thread. I am not particularly religious, but I enjoy attending the midnight services in the candle-lit churches that last till the sunrise. Even the time is kept different in Athos according to the Byzantine tradition and the Julian calendar is still in use.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_time

    Not many people know that this place exists. If you enjoy history and nature, it is very appealing and unique. Many will recognise the figures on their follis and solidus in the iconography and wall paintings of the monasteries. There is no place like this in the world and I have travelled quite a bit! Finally, here is a nice video someone took with a drone:

     
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  3. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    I went to the region with my family in 1984, and I remember the landscape and the buildings from a boat ride. We never visited Mount Athos myself, but I have been planning a trip back to the Thessaloniki area to go hiking and climbing. I’m now putting Mount Athos on the list too. Thank you for sharing!
     
    7Calbrey, BenSi, +VGO.DVCKS and 5 others like this.
  4. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member


    Great write up. Your right about most people not knowing about it but that was by design, the loss of the Empire to the Turks was a huge mark on the history of Christianity, the name change from Roman Empire to Byzantine empire was to hide the history of that loss. If you spoke to a person who lived in the empire they would have called themselves Romani. The empire was the 1000 year evolution of the Roman Empire, same basis of laws and traditions and the emperor still wore the purple.
    I have been lucky to visit Istanbul several times now, amazing city to this day. A wonderful mix of Asia and Europe.
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  5. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Sounds great. The only thing I can think in the world that might be similar is the Monastery of St. Catherine at the foot of Mt. Sinai. With high walls built by Justinian after its founding by St. Helena (Constantine's mother) it has been a church since the 4th century A.D. The attire of the monks is Greek Orthodox as are the services.

    Even though Sinai (or Sina in Arabic) is now part of Egypt where the predominant form of Christianity is Coptic, the monastery has always been Orthodox even during the Ottoman period. In the library is a letter of manumission written by Muhammad in the 7th century guaranteeing religious freedom and even protection to the monastery from desert raiders as well as a fourth century bible.

    The climb to the top of the mountain (Jebel Musa, e.g., mountain of Moses) is steep and consists of more than 3,500 steps carved into the rock by the monks over the centuries. It was a bit tiring but I made it to the top in a couple of hours.

    [​IMG]

    Highly recommended trip. I stayed in a Bedouin hostel called Fox Camp at the foot of the mountain and a short walk to the monastery.
     
  6. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Wow, thank you for that! I had no clue there was a remnant of the Romani Empire that was left. Thank you for the excellent write-up, pics, and maps, @Only a Poor Old Man .

    WOW, on that video. They did an excellent job, and did not say a word. Impactful. I believe I am going there, and it will upset my wife that she is not allowed!

    So cool that this is the last vestage of the Romani Empire, that lives on, uninterupted, today.

    Interesting thought: The Greeks built Empires by collapsing the Perisan Empire. Rome came and incorporated them into their Empire. Western Rome fell, the Eastern Greek portion of the Roman Empire carried on.

    Interesting irony: Greeks lose their Empires to Rome, but they continue the Roman(i) Empire on through today.

    My most "modern" of Romani Empire AR coins...
    upload_2020-3-29_10-38-9.png
    BZ Andronicus II - Michael IX AD 1295-1320 AR Basilikon 22mm 2.1g Constantinople Christ enthroned - Andronicus l Michael r labarum DOC V 1 Class VIII

    My Earliest Roman AR coins...
    RR Anon AR Heavy Denarius -  Didrachm 310-300 BCE 7.3g 21mm Mars-Horse FIRST Cr 13-1 Left.JPG
    Rome's first Silver coin... aspiring to becoming a regional power...

    Roman Republic
    Anonymous, 280-275 BCE

    Didrachm (Silver, 20mm, 7.28 g 11)
    Uncertain mint (Neapolis?)
    OBV: Helmeted head of bearded Mars to left; oak spray to right
    REV: Horse’s head right, wearing bridle, on base inscribed ROMANO; to left, stalk of grain.
    REF: Sear 22; Crawford 13/1; HN III 266. Sydenham 1
    COMMENTS: Minor reverse corrosion.
    From a Swiss collection, formed in the 1990s

    Some state these were minted in 312 BCE to pay for the building of Via Appia (Appian Way). The Appia and other Via's were designed and built to enable Rome to move their Legions RAPIDLY to troubled areas or to War. Additionally and very importantly, the Via's were main arteries for commerce. After all, the Legions were designed as political muscle so that commerce would flow...
     
  7. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    Thanks. That was a great write up. Back in the 1980's I visited Greece and Turkey and spent much of my time searching for surviving traces of Byzantium. I had no idea this bit of it was still extant. I presume that the language is some dialect of Greek (Demotic?) or do they employ the older Koine of the Bible? Do they identify themselves as Greeks (Hellenes) or Romaioi when asked about nationality? And lastly, and most importantly, do they have any coin shops there?
     
  8. Voulgaroktonou

    Voulgaroktonou Well-Known Member

    What a beautiful right-up and photos! Thank you. Oh, I miss Greece! Although "Byzantium", and I use that term very guardedly, provided the foundation for the modern Greek nation, the inhabitants of the eastern Roman empire in the middle ages would not have used that term to describe themselves. They were, of course, "Romaioi". Anthony Kaldellis, of Ohio State, (who occasionally borrows books from my library, in Cincinnati!) has written a very readable account of the dichotomy of "Roman" vs. "Byzantine", in his recent book Romanland: Ethnicity and empire in Byzantium. You can see a TLS review of it at: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/byzantium-romanland-kaldellis/
     
  9. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    Nice writeup, didn't expect to see it here. I am Greek orthodox myself so it is a must for me to have visit the holy mountain.

    Woman are forbidden, not only for the reason you stated, but Mount Athos is known as the Garden of the Mother of God. When the Virgin Mary and Saint John the Evangelist were sailing to visit Saint Lazaros on Cyprus, they were blown off course and landed at Mount Athos. The Virgin Mary admired the beauty of the place so much that she asked God to give the mountain to her as a present.

    It is by the way 25 for orthodox and 35 euro for non-orthodox people and only max 10 non-orthodox visitors are allowed to enter the mountain a day. It really is not a tourist place, it is specifically for pilgrims or people who are truly interested in the religion and the spirituality behind the place. "We preserve the Byzantine Empire because it is a treasure of Orthodoxy, not because this is the relic of a secular state. This is not a museum, but a living place". Father Jeremiah.

    I highly recommend this documentary for anyone who is interested in orthodox religion and/or Mount Athos.

     
  10. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    The Hellenic world became merged with the Roman world and the ethnic Greeks called themselves Rhomaioi until the very end. However, there does seem to have formed a distinct culture over the year, heavily influenced by the orthodox religion and different from the Roman Imperials. After the end of the "dark ages" (ca. 7 to 8th centuries) the Empire took the "character" that western historiography calls "Byzantine", different from the Western Romans, and the predominance of the Greek language against Latin was almost total. The ethnic Greeks still recognized themselves as descendant from the Hellenics and the Latin language never really replaced Greek as the language of communication among people, of philosophy, science and the church.
     
  11. Only a Poor Old Man

    Only a Poor Old Man Well-Known Member

    Pavlos already answered parts of your question, but it is important to note that as women are not allowed in Athos, nobody has been born there for a thousand years. Monks come to Athos from the outside world, and the majority are ethnic Greeks. However, most Orthodox nations are represented as there is one Russian, one Bulgarian, and one Serbian monastery. The rest (17) are Greek. There is also a Romanian skete ( smaller monastery) and plenty of non Greek hermitages. Also even if a main monastery is regarded Greek, it will also have monks from other nationalities. There are a few American monks residing in Athos and at least a couple of Harvard graduates.

    I ommited to include in my main post a guide on how to get there.. Nowdays arranging any trip usually consists of a visit to Easyjet and booking.com, however with Athos it is a bit more complicated and a bit more bureucratic. The following is a very detailed guide:

    http://thessaloniki.pbworks.com/w/page/22156781/Visiting-Athos

    If this is too complicated, an easier alternative to get to Byzantine monasteries and magnificent nature is Meteora in central Greece. A lot more touristic though.

    The Halkidiki region is one of the best kept secrets in Greece. Or at least it was back in 1984. It is a lot more touristic now, however it still has miles of pristine beaches and secluded coves. What I love about Athos is that it also has some picture-postcard beaches too (it is part of Halkidiki), but they have never had a single bikini-clad bather on them, something extremely rare nowdays... The only other beach I can imagine sharing a similar characteristic is probably the one with the rather unfriendly locals on North Sentinel.
     
  12. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I find it interesting that by charter, female animals are also barred from Mount Athos. An exception is made for cats, it seems, because female cats ensure a continued population of mousers.

    It occurred to me upon reading this that in all probability women have been there in disguise, just as Christian Englishmen used to visit Mecca in disguise (or attempt to do so) in the 19th century. This article confirms at least one such visit (in 1953), as well as one sanctioned visit by a woman in the past -- a 14th century empress of Serbia whose feet never touched the soil during her visit, because she either walked on carpet or was carried. And then there's the recent discovery of what appear to be the remains of a woman buried there. See https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...reeces-all-male-monastic-peninsula-180973811/
     
  13. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    Great write-up, thanks!

    well said
     
  14. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus Well-Known Member

    I, too, miss Greece. I couldn't help but get the sense of being in the middle-Roman Empire walking down those narrow alleyways with Greek writing everywhere and Greek-Speaking former Romans walking around me.

    Indeed, the closest thing to the Roman Empire today is the nation state of Greece. Here's a tribute to the never-forgotten Empire:
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    Nice write up.
    Certainly going to add that to the bucket list.
     
  16. philologus_1

    philologus_1 Supporter! Supporter

    I also have visited Istanbul. Thank you for sharing the pictures of Haggai Sophia -- exterior and interior. It led me to pull up a few pics I took while there. Below is a picture of HUGE wall art inside Hagai Sophia.

    upload_2020-3-29_14-0-31.png

    As a collector of Byzantine coinage the image really struck home. Take a look at just the central portion below and you will see the basis for MANY Byz coin types!

    upload_2020-3-29_14-2-47.png

    Here is the obverse of my Sear 1813:
    upload_2020-3-29_14-3-38.png
     
  17. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I should have included the text of the 7th-century letter to the Christians of St. Catherine as I alluded to above. Here it is, translated from the Arabic. A bit if a different perspective from what we hear nowadays. A bit of a Byzantine island in a sea of nascent Islam...

    This
    is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

    Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

    No compulsion is to be on them.

    Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

    No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

    Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

    No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

    The Muslims are to fight for them.

    If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

    Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

    No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

    Anyway, I thought it might be of interest...
     
  18. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Amazing thread; thanks to @Only a Poor Old Man for (starting it and) alerting me to its existence on another thread. This brought out the best in all the contributors.
    @ancient coin hunter, you Nailed it; That's how the entire Middle East continued to have a substantial Christian population, across several communions, for better than a millennium.
     
  19. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    This is indeed a great thread with beautiful photos @Only a Poor Old Man . I missed this thread while I was on hiatus for a while so I am happy I got a chance to read it now. It truly is a window into a long gone world.

    Before I visited Greece for the first time I did a decent amount of reading on Mt. Athos and its history. While I imagine it would be a wonderful experience to visit and learn more about it and its influence on Orthodox Christianity the fact that women aren’t allowed really took it off the list of places I would ever practically be interested in seeing. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem respecting the traditions I just can’t see myself going on any trip without my wife, without whom traveling would lose all its joy.

    For those of a similar mindset but who are still interested in learning about Orthodox monasticism in Greece I highly recommend visiting Meteora. It is second in importance only to Mt. Athos and women are allowed to visit as well. Here are a few photos from my visit. It is a beautiful and fascinating place though certainly more touristy than the serene Mt. Athos.
    2696130A-5E38-4ED3-BB71-764F75121074.jpeg
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    E22AEBB0-3776-48BB-83A8-C30A1AF12CD0.jpeg
     
  20. Yorkshire

    Yorkshire Well-Known Member

    I remember watching a video of this on YouTube and apparently no females are allowed because when the Virgin Mary landed on the beach she fell in love with the beauty and asked if it could be her personal garden and she heard some words back basically saying ok!
     
    Theodosius likes this.
  21. AuldFartte

    AuldFartte Well-Known Member

    This is one of the most fascinating threads I have seen yet. Thank you so much @Only a Poor Old Man for starting this. Great information from everyone! The post about Meteora is wonderful. I have a small collection of Byzantine AE coins, and I will keep slowly building it.
     
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