Need Help with definition

Need some help!
I have been looking high and low for a comprehensive definition of “error” coins. I can not find anywhere that the condition or variety of ‘die crack’ is ever referred to as an error coin

Here lately we have heard these two terms used almost interchangeably, depending on who is telling the story. For those persons who know no better, it’s a time to learn. For those who do know the difference and they still insist on using the terms in error, it amounts to trickery to the 10th. degree.

So I put it to the members of this forum... Is a die crack a “error” coin or simply a variety?
Please furnish evidence.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Well....does it matter that I'm a younger collector....?!

I would say it depends on a few things...is the crack big....does it run all the way across the coin...so on.

Most of the time I would say it IS NOT a error and shouldn't raise the value any.

I'm in the middle of writing an article about this problem.....people seeing a die crack and calling it an error and I hope to send it to the ANA....don't know if it will get printed but think I'll try....either way I hope to put it on my web site that I'm building!

Speedy

 

I always considered die cracks as part of the normal life of the dies. Never thought of them as errors (maybe I should check all of my previous posts before making that statement!).

However, I was told that some folks consider die "breaks" as errors. The argument was that the mint may accept cracks, but the dies should be replaced when they break. So if the coins are released into circulation with breaks, it was an error. I'm still thinking on this one.

I collect 1921-D Morgans with die breaks. I've always considered them varieties, not errors. When I post VAMs on this forum, I've put some in the error forum. Clear as mud.

 

Definitely a non sequitor my friend.

I can't think of any reasonable definition of "error" that would encompass routine "life of the die" varieties, but whether any coin that isn't exactly what the Mint wanted to release is worth a numismatic premium has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not its an "error".

It's not my cup of tea, but I believe there are VAMS with very high premiums, and those are unquestionably "varieities", so both error and varieities can be worth either the same prices as common examples, or a premium.

 

Here's my definition;


Something that is inherently wrong, i.e wrong alloy, wrong sized planchet, wrong obverse reverse alignment, wrong obverse reverse match, and spelling mistakes (uncorrected) are errors. In that they are abberations that were not intended and are due to human error.


Anything else such as die cracks, and problems reasulting from die deterioration and striking issues are 'die flaws'.

Varieties are different again, die flaws can just happen to a handful of coins. Varieties tend to be things that happen to quite alot. So a die crack can be a variety but it is also a flaw. Whilst some varieties such as overdates and corrected spelling mistakes are neither errors nor flaws.

 

Hi All,

It appears that again, this is another area that the Numismatic World of Coin Professionals, Experts and maybe even the Mints themselves, need to give a clarification on! Although I am in no way an expert concerning Varieties and Mint Errors, logical thinking about how a coin is made from the creation of the planchet and Dies all the way through to the finished product, the following is what I believe should be a rough definition of Varieties and Mint Errors.

Variety - An approved design change in the Dies which results in variations in the lettering, Date, Mint Mark, Obverse design or Reverse design within the period (usually current year) of use of the Dies, whether they are scheduled (planned) or unscheduled (unplanned) changes to the Dies for one reason or another. Also, an approved change in the planchet which results in the change in the size (diameter and/or thickness) or change in the composition, whether they are scheduled (planned) or unscheduled (unplanned) changes for one reason or another.

Mint Error - Any imperfection in the coin such as a Die Crack, Die Cud, Struck Through (object or material), Struck Through Grease, Lamination Error, Split Planchet, Doubled Die, Machine Doubling, Wrong Planchet (struck on planchet that was intended for a different denomination of coin), Wrong Metal (struck on a washer or other metal disk), Cladding Errors, Sintered Planchet, Double/Triple Struck, Double Struck Flip-Over, Off-Center, Rotated Reverse, Misaligned Die, Brockage, Capped Die Strike, Struck outside the Collar (or variations thereof), improperly prepared Planchet, Clipped Planchet, RPM's, OMM's, ODD's, etc., etc, which are not planned and approved and are overlooked (missed) in the quality control processes.

To help everyone understand my reasoning behind my thinking, the key words to consider in my definitions are in bold print!


Frank

 

I think this is a problem between word definition and numismatic jargen.

If you ask someone to define the word 'error', such things will come up as 'mistake', 'imperfection', etc. Now, I think you can throw out the associated term of 'imperfection', because that only qualifies as an error if your intention was to be flawless - in such case, a die crack would qualify because it contains a flaw.
edited to add: Sorry, Huntsman, I didn't mean this post to contradict your post - I didn't read it until after. But I don't, personally, think that imperfection qualifies as an 'error'.
Now, maybe the problem is understanding what qualifies as a mistake in the minting process. A Die will crack as they strike x amount of coins, the mint knows this, and will continue to use a slightly worn die (most likely for cost reasons) - so it doesn't qualify - because it is not a mistake.

That doesn't mean they aren't collectable - anything is collectable, if you can find someone that is interested in it. That also doesn't mean they won't carry a premium. If people are willing to pay more for a cracked die, because it is somehow seperated from a flawless example, then the market will carry a premium on examples struck with a cracked die.

 

I go along with nesvt on this. My main focus of collecting is Morgans in general and Vams as a sideline. I consider die cracks/breaks as varieties.
I also consider Morgans such as the 1878 7/8 TF as varieties and not errors. The 1878 7/8 interesting in that these were deliberately made at the mint to correct the "wrong" 8TF reverse to a "correct" 7TF. The O/CC coins and the various overdates were also deliberately made and released with the full knowledge of mint employees. They had to crank out enormous quantities of dollars under the Bland-Allison and Sherman Acts, sometimes scrambling to scrounge dies to maintain tight production schedules. I would hazard a guess that they thought no one would notice. They surely could not have conceived of the state of collecting today, with every known die pair being aggressively catalogued. I think the consensus in the Vam world is that these are varieties and not errors.

I would also use the Capped Bust series of halves as an example. Coins in this series, with its many overdates and other anomalies, are generally known as Overton varieties. I wouldn`t consider any of the Bust half overdates as errors.

So, just what DOES constitute an error? Is the 1942/1 dime, or the 1918-S 8 0ver 7 SLQ an error? Is the 1955 double die indeed an error or just a variety? The mint employees knew about the 1955 double die and released them anyway due to a coin shortage. The waters are indeed muddy.

 

Thank you gentlemen, one and all!

I can accept huntsman's definitions and can collect using these set of meanings. I would also agree with Rick on the potential problem of definitions and how each type is defined.

I believe this has been a well discussed topic and proves that different opinions can and do work togather, to form a smooth operation when we want it to be that way.

Again Thank you.

 

Hey OldDan....I asked an older collector today...and he said that when he collected years ago a die crack was never thought of as an error...in fact...most dealers tried not say anything about them becasue they thought if a coin they were selling had a die crack many wouldn't buy it...they would count it as a bad coin.

Speedy

 

That fairly well sums it up Speedy, as I was born, raised and grew old in feeling exactly this way. All the sets that I have ever been around, have never had any of the so called "error" coins in them. Almost without exception all the people I associate with consider them as scrap/without value pieces of metal. In fact, it wasn't until my father insisted on haveing the 3 legged Buffalo in a couple of sets that my grandfather finally agreed and allowed the addition. Mind you this was a joint family venture and granddad maintained control on most topics. After all he started most of them. But then that is another story.

 

Is this collection still intact? Three generations - amazing - that must be something to see.

 

Dan I am very glad to see you have an error coin (excessive Die polishing) in your collection and a nice one at that, I wish I had one.

Maybe in a few generations your collection will contain a speared bison.

Good luck with your collection

 

The main part of the collection is 85% intact at this time, with the prospect of having at least another 5 to 10% added to it by years end.

It is being used as colateral for easment along 18 miles of Blue-ribbon trout stream. The easment will remain in place for another 49 years and is open to public fishing. At the close of the time frame the property owner will take possession of all parts of the collection, and can do what ever they want to do with the assets

It will never happen, as I only collect "real" Buffalo coins, not these want-to-bees. Compare Fraser's Buffalo with these things someone made up by looking at pictures and sitting at their desk at the mint. Look at either side of the Indian head or Buffalo TYPE, and then at these poor imitations.
Do you see any difference?

As for the 3 legged ones in the sets, we prefer to call them varieties as the mint knew exactly what was going to happen when they did the polishing. it was probably written up on a work order, no less.

 

I would call them a mint variety...same as RPM's....but most of the time I bet the mint knew when they made a RPM...but with over polishing...they might have known and they might not have---

So in my book...an error....is a off center strike...a coin struck on the wrong planchet...so on....not some little die crack.

I'm not sure but would like to know....has there ever been a coin with a die crack graded PF70 or MS70??....since its really die damage...or that is what some older collectors call it....it just shows where the die is cracking and maybe going to break...that is IMO....

I like this thread alot!

Speedy

 

Speedy,

There may be some coins that have been graded as PF70 or MS70, if a minute Die Crack went undetected by the Coin Grader(s) but this should not have happened! A PF70 or MS70 Grade means that the coin is totally flawless with no imperfections whatsoever.


Frank

 

I may be mistaken, but I don not believe, that a die crack has anything to do with the condition of a coin. Condition has to do with the state of preservation of a coin, not die flaws.

 

Dan it's awesome that you are protecting that river, awesome....I'm an environmentalist...good for you.

As for your three legged buffalo that you prefer to call a "variety" is in Fact a die error called excessive die polishing, is it also a variety???? I think so, but I don't think we are all clear on that, I'm not!

Good luck with that river and I hope it stays open and in it's natural state forever.