Lacquered 1911 D- with hundreds of hours of xylene in the sun

Boss,

Weimar White is not a nut because he thinks that toning is damage. He is a nut because he thinks that dipping toned coins is a perfectly acceptable solution to cure that "damage". I don't doubt his scientific methods or results. However, to say that dipping coins is a numismatic cure, falls in the realm of the lunatic fringe. And he gave and example of one toned coin that successfully hid a previous cleaning from long ago, but fails to mention the thousands upon thousands of coins that are now problem coins due to over dipping.

Regarding Doug's tone, he is who he is and he is not going to change. He speaks his mind and does it bluntly. I respect that even though I don't always agree with him. However, on this topic, I think he is right. Although I don't share his opinion in an absolute sense, I think that attempting to improve a problem coin is almost always an effort in futility. I won't criticize your desire to attempt it, but I stand firmly behind Doug's decision to ward others away from following your path. You do it because you enjoy it, others will do it because they think it will work. In that respect, Doug's advice is invaluable IMO.

 

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I guess all I can do here is agree to disagree, I do appreciate you taking the time to write such a lenghty response and I also appreciate where you're coming from as far as perspective. I just have a real hard time believing that your view has to be the case, every time, no matter what the circumstances. Maybe because I collect mostly circulated coins is the reason I think that way. I just figure that if a coin can circulate for years and years and years ,with everybody's hands all over it, and it's been who knows where, I can't see that trying to improve it's eye appeal can always be wrong. I know the grade will be the grade. That's not why I would want to mess with it in the first place. I'm also not talking about shining, buffing, or going to some other ridiculous length..just talking about improving it's looks, maybe a little. Doctoring, re-toning, overdipping, all that kind of stuff I can easily see your point. But, getting rid of a foreign substance, be it dirt, grease, bodily excrement...who knows what. It can be "professionally" restored so, there has to be a medium method there somewhere, and what that method exactly is, every time, may or may not be the same every time, depending on a number of factors, of course. Circulated coins become problem coins as soon as they hit circulation as I see it. My 1909S VDB in relatively good shape? I'm not gonna touch it (no offense Boss), but my circulated non-key cents...why not? If I ruin a few learning, so much the better. Maybe that's the rub...maybe I'm, we (some of us) are spending time on coins that are not worth great sums of value are not worth messing with, in your opinion, and that's cool too., eye of the beholder thing and all. I love opinions, and I know that you believe, obviously, very convinced of your stance. Great. I just believe absolutes like that are faulty. Like I say, agree to disagree I suppose. Thanks much for the input and I don't totally dismiss your views. I just think they can be "cleaned up" a bit more towards my view.
PS..Thanks Boss for the moral support there. You're alright bud.

 

I agree here that he was ridiculous to think toning was "bad" and that unfortunately this influenced a generation of collectors to dip and overdip their coins. I agree with your opinion here completely.

I don't disagree with the idea that the more you mess with a coin (if you don't you know what your doing) the worse the coins will likely look. I know this by firsthand experience. I do think the delivery of the message has everything to do with how the message is received. If Doug or anyone says the right thing all day but delivers it the wrong way or in a off-putting way, than that is likely a waste of time. The other people are going to focus on the negative or defensive tone and MISS the message. The style of delivery is More important than the message sometimes. Look at our great leader (Obama). He can say insane things but he says it so smooth that we all follow willingly and happily (not that Doug is saying insane things- maybe a bad analogy but you get the point). We all are who we are, but we can all improve on our deficits. I guess my point is is to consider your audience. I manage a numbe of people and have to think about this all the time. I will lead best by influencing others for the good. A all or nothing, black and white tone often turns people off and they stop listening. Just MHO's.

 

Formation of copper carbonate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_carbonate

Baking soda will just totally eat the surface of a copper coin removing several molecular layers of copper. Up to this point Boss only used solvents, which will NOT remove copper from the surface. IMO, once you remove copper, the surface is harshly cleaned and absolutely not the same.

 

I dont think you are a jerk GD, just wrong and prone to thinking you are always right Its okay to admit you might not know.

Its a pleasure to see people with a bit of common sense. Gives me hope that not all collectors just follow like lemmings what someone tells them is right or wrong. Coins cannot be improved? Wow...tell that to those people who do it, and do it well for a money. Not only can some coins be made nicer by cleaning...so called experts do it all the time and charge for it...and so called know it alls always tell people to go to those experts and not to do it themselves....or live with a ratty coin that any 4 year old can tell just needs some TLC. Boy would my collection suffer if I just wrote off every lovely coin that came into my possession simply because somone told me that if it doesnt come to me clean and perfect, it can never be improved ever!!

certainly this coin:



would still be coated in the sticky goop it had on it when it came to me.

Anyone who does not think some ratty coins can be improved (some, not all) simply is ignoring all the before and afters from conservation experts. And forgetting their own advice which is often 'only allow experts to conserve coins'...thus if experts are able to conserve a coin...certainly others could do if privy to that knowledge. Thus if one has ever seen a coin that has been improved, even by an expert, then the statement that a coin cannot be improved is simply wrong.

GD asks how many times until he realizes he cant make a coin better...I would ask how many coins improved by careful conservation must be shown until he realizes he is flat wrong...If you have been here on this forum you will see that GD makes some posts that are bright and informative...and still other posts that make a person think WTF was he smoking!! (I wont go into the examples) He is human, he is flawed, he is biased...like anyone else here. IMO he has little information to impart in regards to conservation save 'dont do it'...because this is what he would do.

this is what I find...often the people saying 'dont do it' couldnt advise you on any real cleaning process anyway...and those people who could wont inform you because they do it for a living and certainly they arent going to expose their methods. If you have no clue, but still want to be the guy who gives advice...just tell them 'dont do it'...you are safe because these days people seem so frightened to even touch a coin let alone soak it.

The saddest part about it all is this useless advice is given to people who are often just trying to treat a coin that has developed problems. These people give all kinds of reasons why they will not impart any information that might help one conserve a coin that has developed BD or other problems...the best one by far is they dont want YOU to ruin YOUR coin...how frustrating must that be to a person who has a coin that has something as destructive as BD to hear someone tell them they know how to treat it but wont give the information out on how to help that coin 'for their own good'...its absurd and sadly common practice...with the BD issue I realized that most of these guys simply dont know...never bothered to even test methods...like soft cotton scratching metal...one must simply rub a clean soft cloth across the face of a cheap coin to realize it doesn't scratch it...To refuse to inform people how to clean a coin properly probably causes far more coins to be ruined by people who will go ahead and clean a coin anyway...improperly because no one told them the right way.

Kudos to those people who dont give the canned response of 'dont clean it' and instead offer up real tried and true answers to questions from people who have a ratty coin they might be able to improve... or people who are looking to test methods. Coin collecting is an expensive hobby so its completely understandable that you would want to DIY and avoid all the people out there trying to take a little for themselves...spend your money on coins and learn the best way to DIY... Some coins cannot be helped...certainly others can and anyone who says differently is simply ignoring the facts.

The best way to help collectors is to take it coin by coin...as some coins cannot be improved...others can. A blanket statement saying 'coins cannot be improved by cleaning' is simply wrong and helps no one. I would love to get every tried and true method and post them to my site for anyone who needs it, along with the bad with warnings WHY its bad. that would be helping people.

 

Does anyone know how to multiy quote the way Doug does? It never works for me.
Anyway Tom- kuddos and good response. And BTW, the VDB represents what Doug is trying to prevent and it was all fine until I used contaminated Dellars and did not mix it with petroleum. http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t52910/ Here's the link if you got some time.

Doug- I would imagine you would be a fine leader/manager because you are consistent and true to your convictions and very honest. Not normal qualities these days. This is what I don't like about online relationships. So different to meet CT's in person after blogging so long. When I met AJ, I was even more impressed with him than previous, for example. Magman caught me off guard being such a young guy I would have never guessed. You can say something sharp and do it with a certain type of body language that can soften the blow. This is absent online and therefore criticism or harshness comes off MUCH stronger. I try to remember that about you Doug, cause I know your a good dude even if we disagree and I think your very stubborn.:bigeyes:encil::thumb:
Drusus- excellent points and I know one of your coins you posted with DW (distilled water) and oil or something was absolutely amazing (it was like a year or 2 ago when I first started here). You should post a link to that thread cause that coin was awesome. It had like bars across it or something and was copper. I am only promoting conservation.

Thad- baking soda, well, no matter what it seems that lacquer has come off ridiculously slow. The coin already discolored with my hundreds of hours of xylene. I am not sure why mineral spirits are any better. I have used this before, but xylene seems the most effective. What would DMSO if I used glooves and a mask?

 

Boss, to multiple quote, copy the section of text for the first quote and paste it into the Reply message box, highlight it, and then click the last icon on the toolbar ( next to the insert image icon), this will wrap it as a separate quote,

Write some more and then copy another section of text from the original post and repeat as above. It will surround that section with separate quote box.

Jim

 

Like this?

Is this the way?

 

Yeah that worked!! Thanks Jim

 

Drusis...could you maybe start a thread or continue this one, on good and bad effects of different methods that you know of? While I'm at it..what is your opinion of lighter fluid or peroxide on copper? Good info (to me anyway)..appreciated reading it. Information is a great thing.

 

OK, I heard enough...

It appears a little hypocritical to me to in one breath condemn a collector for trying to learn how to improve and/or clean his coins while in the next breath be applauding an outfit like NCS, e.g., for trying to do the same thing to the coins submitted to them for a fee. I think we're all learned enough here to know, cleaning coins is an exacting activity. But at the same time I think we all also know, cleaned coins pass the scrutiny every day, they end up in slabs, even acid-dipped ones, and nobody is the wiser. Or, to be more frank, nobody cares. The TPGs have the "out" for that, the coins are "market acceptable." End of story, there.

Having said that, IMHO, it's also altogether arrogant to conceive of proper cleaning as brain surgery. One wouldn't think of operating on somebody's brain, one would leave that to the pros. But, let's face it, that's hardly what proper cleaning is. Anybody can learn it. NCS, et al., might not like us to think that. But, grab some sense. You have to be particular in your methods, sure, that's a given. And, the best methods, I'd think most would agree, are still proprietary and confidential (at least, at this point in time), and, rightfully so. Take Thad's little concoction, for example. Would anybody among us even dream of asking him, "Hey, buddy, what's in that ship(sp?)?" Same goes for NCS, et al., as those formulas and methods are just as rightfully proprietary and confidential. But, again, this isn't brain surgery. And, everybody here is astute enough to know, you don't experiment anew on anything worth anything. And, one is going to misfire, from time to time, that's another foregone conclusion. Chalk it up to trial and experience and the learning curve. But, this is nothing the average collector can't learn, and learn to do as well as the pros, I'm convinced.

One last point, before I shove off. Let's think of that term, "market acceptable." We're not talking about the folks on eBay, necessarily. Then again, we're not talking about the market a gentleman like Eliasberg, Louis, Jr. hangs in, either, necessarily. We're talking about the TPGs. "Market acceptable" is their term. We're talking about the average collector market that deals in their slabs, primarily, and, from time to time, some raw coins. I'm sure, were we to kept at this, we'd figure out ways to improve our coins through cleaning and/or dipping that would be TPG "acceptable" to that discriminating "market." But, we'd have to keep at it. Throw up our hands in defeat, and, of course, we'd never get there, but forever remain in darkness, ignernt.

 

I just thought I'd heard enough and it was time I got in my two cents, Doug. I wasn't trying to reply you or anybody, specifically. Just trying to say what I thought. FWIW.

 

Ok. We have Doug, obviously smart, experienced who has a never,ever, opinion. The other end of the spectrum says.. Yes We Can and We Do. Two opposing beliefs. How bout we mix in a little of ingredients from both trains of thought, shake em up and see what we come out with. For one, I think there is bits of truth of both...and so the final result is????

 

Brutally to the point and as usual on that last one there I guess huh Doug? Abrasive it may be though probably correct.... however I think we knew that going in. I meant try and get people to post their actual results, conditions, type of coin, chemicals used, circulated or not, maybe eye appeal grade started with, that kind of thing to compare against. Maybe it's the way words look in print again..I don't know.. I guess definitive proof either way is yet to come, maybe never will. Oye vey...

 

I think that brain surgery and coin conservation are not in the same league (referencing previous reply). Coin conservation can be learned. I think I can execute rose thorns and oil treatment on a filthy coin and get a coin to upgrade consistenly. This is through a lot of practice and study. I have used Verdigone and DS water to significantly improve coins look and chemical stability. Just my opinions on the subject. Clearly I am not expert on lame, stubborn lacquered 1911 D's !!

 

Boss..I can't decide whether your avatar is an airforce pilot or a bassett hound..