Matte Proof Lincoln question

They do:
BR
RB
RD, thats all your going to get from them.

To judge MPL's, you have to just see alot of them. I scope them out at every show and every auction viewing session I attend. I am FAR FAR from expert here I would not buy one without Rick, Charmy or Brians opinion.

 

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Well, I'm finished discussing this topic here but everyone else can certainly discuss on! So, you asked, and I will deliver - here are a few of my MPLs - the first one is PCGS PF65 BN, the rest of the photos speak for themselves.

 

Not so fast, what's the rush?

Let me repeat my statement, word for word: "OTOH, you're just enamored with these things and believe as such they rightfully should command premiums, forgive my abruptness, but they're your coins! End of discussion." In other words, if that's all this is about, that's your business, entirely and without discussion. I have no cause to tell you what coins you should love. Nobody does. Neither do I nor anybody have cause to tell you how you should price those coins should you ever go to sell them. Ergo, end of the discussion, because there's nothing left to discuss! That's all I was saying. OTOH, you make it a public issue, and that's different. You want the TPGs and price guides to acknowledge what you love in special designations and premium pricing, that's different. But, as you stressed, you don't want that. OK. I hear you. As such, I have nothing left to say.

 

That 1913 PCGS PR65 is just amazing!
WOWZER!

 

I am getting in this late sitting here on a Sat smoking my cigar (I had to take off me NWO gas mask though for some fresh cigar air- thanks eddiespin for the mask!). Well my very humble opinions are that pricing for a dealer is their choice. If they want to sell at a high premium and even one person buys than that becomes the price on that transaction. If Charmy is asking too much on her coins she won't sell them (if they are unreasonably priced). This is capitalism vs communist fixed pricing (we'll get their soon at this rate however). Price guides are a guide. I wouldn't buy MPL because they are too expensive. I do think Chamy's coins are in the upper % of the coins out there as well as Rick and I don't know Brian but apparently he has very nice coppers. I have sat at Charmy's table many hours on a couple occassions and her coins are over the top on eye appeal. I paid more than say Numismedia retail prices but these coins are some of the most attractive I own. Probably the real issue for dealers is the margins. What did they pay and what will they sell for. Question for Charmy. On your 1916 MPL that has such eye appeal for like 9 K: what if you didn't sell it for a year? How much would you lower the price? If it is way overpriced you might sit on it a long time. How long will a dealer sit on a coin till the lower the price? I noticed my dealer will wait a long time and then barely lower the price. I think he marks up most coins like 20% + but that is not the profit margin. He leases a shop and has expenses. I sold him a coin for 45$ and he put on the bid board for $55. I watched that coin sit there for 4-5 months. I am not even sure he sold yet. He was doing me a favor as far as I could see.

 

Boss, FWIW, their Retail Price (RP) is going to be equal to their Wholesale Cost (WC) divided by 1 minus their Gross Margin (GM). Thus, supposing they’re operating on a 40% GM and paid $100 wholesale for the coin. They’re going to retail it at $100/.6 = $166.67. Most of the big supermarket retailers operate on 40% GMs. I've known coin dealers who have operated on as low as 30% GMs. Depends on the operating costs they have to cover. That math goes out the window, of course, when they want to get more.

 

I don't know where you ever read in my threads that I said or even intimated that I wanted the pricing guides to acknowledge premiums for eye appealing coins or TPGs to designate anything special on their holders. I NEVER DISCUSSED THIS. That's what I didn't get, and still don't - and I think it is bizarre that you somehow got this out of my posts. All I was basically saying is that toned and eye appealing coins garner premium prices in the marketplace. But as long as you now understood, we're all good.

 

Hey Boss/Eddie, regarding pricing and mark ups, I don't have a set forumula for how I price my coins. My markups are based of course on what I paid and what current trends are, as well as the quality of the coin.

And the 1916 is the lowest mintage of the MPLs (600, even though it's not as hard to find as the 1909 vdb) so it is quite rare. Also, this is the first one I've had, and even if it doesn't sell quickly, I don't mind having it in my inventory for a while. (Also, as a side note, I am in partnership with someone else on this coin.) Further, it is one of the prettiest 1916's I've ever seen, so as one rude dealer once said to me because I wouldn't lower an absolutely gorgeous PQ coin down to gray sheet levels, "you can keep it in your museum." So for me, I don't mind holding on to primo coins longer than average coins. But keep in mind, I do negotiate with people on my prices all the time. My prices aren't necessarily set in stone. I accept reasonable offers that are lower than my listed prices, as most dealers do. Hope this answers your questions.

Now I'm off to the casino for a hopefully profitable night so I can afford to buy more 1916 MPLs!!!!

 

Eddie:

I think that you have your head waaay out in front of your skis on this one. I happen to work for one of the largest supermarket retailers in North America. (You may have heard of Safeway.) Trust me, we have one of the largest margins in the grocery business and we operate at (on average) around 7% GM. Not 40, not even 20, but 7%.

I didn't want to hi-jack the thread, but I wanted to make sure that the facts were accurately represented.

 

I have a question for an experienced MPL dealer on this coin.

I am sorry I don't have a better photo for it. The description of this coin came from dealer: Rich violet, cobalt-blue, and yellow-gold toning adorns the admirably preserved surfaces of this lovely Gem. Both sides of the piece are virtually pristine, seeming free of any striking weakness, troublesome hairlines, or handling errors. An outstanding matte proof Lincoln cent.

Would this be average, or premium, how would this be priced?

 

Well Mike I think you're the one headed for the crash into the pine trees on this one buddy. Think of it...7% after subtracting out COGS? And that's going to cover their operating expenses and labor and enable them a tidy profit before they pay their taxes? I think you may be the one inaccurately representing, here. Perhaps you have the terminology confused? For the record, this is the line under COGS in the Income statement I'm talking about, here. I think maybe you may be thinking of something different? What thinkest on that?

 

We should have never even taken it this far. I know how you feel about these things and as a dealer you have credibility coming out of yo--oh, you were saying? Hey, look, take care. No harm. No foul.

 

Every business is going to operate on a different GM based on whats needed to cover the cost of operations.
Large grocery operations do run on 6 to 7% but the volume they do leave the profit needed to stay in business.
Small hardware stores need 40 to 50% to stay in business. They do less volume but still must cover the operating cost.
Clothing stores need 60 to 70%. They need to cover the markdowns on clothes that don't sell.

I'm not sure what a coin dealer would need but I'm sure each is different.
The dealer with an actual store is going to need more than the one with just a website.
I would guess a dealer that sets up at lots of shows would need more to cover those cost. At the same time I can see where the increase in business from the show could offset the need for a higher margin.

If I decided to sell off MPLs right now, I would be asking a really strong price on nice ones and not caring if they sold or not. In my opinion nice matte proofs are really special coins and feel the future prices will reflect that.

 

This is one I would call average.

 

no, Eddie, I am not confused. Many grocers, including the one that I work for, do not operate on margins of more than about 7%. They do, however, do in the neighborhood or $50M - $70M in volume per week. The COGS is often upwards of 95% on these items and are exactly the reason that we have had massive consolidation in the grocery industry over the past 10 years. Even 2% margin on $70m returns $140,000 per week in profit. I think that most corporations would be happy to turn that kind of profit every week.

Although I appreciate the fact that you may believe that what you say is true, it just isn't the way that it is. I am not thinking of anything different. I have a BS in Business from the University of Illinois, I think I have a basic understanding of accounting and it's practices.

That's what I think on that.

 

Good school mike I got one of those degrees too from U of I... then when I went on and got my MBA I remember reading a case study about Costco and how they actually sold their groceries at a loss!!!!!!!! They just made up their losses and then some on the membership fees.

Coin dealers may make 40% on $50-$100 coins, but I would guess the margin is much much smaller on coins worth several thousand.

A few pretty 1915s posted above... I wouldn't say either is spectacular, but definitely not among the bad ones either. Plus it's a much tougher and underrated date I think, compared to the 1916.

 

Mike, now do you see? Read your own statement. You're talking about the profit margin. I'm talking about the gross margin on sales. Your margin is at the bottom of the income statement. Mine is at the top. Mine comes after Sales less COGS. Yours comes after Sales less COGS less Operating Expenses. Mine is before Operating Expenses. Yours is after Operating Expenses. Need I explain further or are we now safely at the bottom of the ski slope in one piece on this one?

 

no, Eddie. I know what you're saying. Do the math.

on average 7% x 70M/week = 4.9M per week in GM. After that comes Operating Expenses. According to your 40% principle the math goes like this:

40% x 70M/week = 28M per week in GM. This is over 1.4 Billion (with a capital B) in GM per year. The company just doesn't do that well, I am sorry.

To be fair, I could look on the actual Income Statement (it's a publicly held corporation) and see what the actual figures are. My 70M/week in sales figure is probably conservative. The margin figure was not. It has been a bone of contention between my particular chain and corporate since they acquired us almost 10 years ago.

 

A coin dealer who only operates a website and shows usually runs on a 10-30% markup, trust me, I know

Lower priced coins run at the high end of that scale and the higher priced coins run at the low end of that scale.

Some slow movers get sold at cost, while some coins, not to often bring a 100-200% margin. It all must average out in the end. Websites are cheap to maintain $ wise but take loads of time. Show travel and related costs are expensive, again, it must all balance out at the end of the month, quarter and year.

 

I lowered the prices on my MPLs a few weeks ago, but that's going to be it. I agree that, in the near future, after the economy stabilizes a bit, these coins will continue to rise due to all the reasons we have been discussing here.

And to ML94539, if your coin is as the description states, it probably would get a premium, especially if there are no spots and the toning is evenly colorful, plus it's in a PCGS Old Green Holder (OGH) which means it's been in the holder since the 1990's and probably will not change much or "grow spots."